Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel? - Feedback

Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/23/06 02:13:13 AM

Age 50, MS

Over the last year I have been discouraged to discover that everything we do in the Christian church is judged to be unscriptural by somebody or another. The fact that we celebrate His resurrection on Sunday is unscriptural because we are not specifically so instructed in Scripture and besides that we have abandoned the Sabbath for it, and besides, Sunday worship has pagan origins. Ditto our celebrations of Christmas, and Easter. And I'm not talking about the traditions that go along with those holidays, but the very fact that we even acknowledge the events that are the reasons for the celebrations. All birthdays, are, of course, pagan. Besides which, we really don't know when He was born, and Scripture doesn't record it or order a feast in remembrance. And besides, the holidays in and of themselves, are really pagan. And of course, the word "Christian", itself, has pagan roots as well. The use of the name "Jesus" is improper, because it deviates from the original form. There are attacks on the church itself because of its origins, on various music styles, various worship styles, and even on the Scripture itself. The list of this stuff is probably a 15 miles long. If I let myself dwell on everything we do as a matter of course that someone has asserted has come about through pagan influence, I'd be afraid to get out of bed in the morning. The thing that the Lord has impressed on my heart is to not pay so much attention to what everybody else says, but to concentrate on Him, which is one reason I don't read very much of this controversial stuff. Rather He has called me to rely on His Word and the guidance of His Spirit to show me what He considers true and important. Finally, one last point before I leave you folks to snipe this one out...there's only been one perfect person to walk this earth. The rest of us are hopelessly flawed, some of us in pretty big ways--including some of the most influential founders of the church of Jesus Christ. Paul was the Osama Bin Laden of his generation, and as a result of his atrosities against Christians, the Bible states that the other believers were afraid of him in the earliest parts of his ministry. But you know, God used him mightily despite that, and he went on to write the majority of the NT Scriptures. My point here is this: if you require only thoroughly blameless people for your companions and leaders, you're gonna find yourselves awfully alone and leaderless cause you just ain't gonna find that on this earth. We are all flawed, and we just have to believe Him, follow Him and trust that He will keep His promise to protect us and keep us safe. Over the last week, induced by these two articles, I have done a bit of investigation into the issues at hand. What I've found is that literature abounds maligning most everyone who ministers in whatever capacity. Most of it was just taking a simple statement out of context from somewhere, and "pick, pick, pick," likely making most of it into things that weren't meant or even thought of at the time. The books of Romans deals with how our relationships as Christians are supposed to work and how we are to handle conflicts in our interpretations of various issues. For those who really care what Scripture has to say about the kind of stuff that's been going on here, Romans 14 is the place to look.
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Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 07/09/06 05:14:32 PM Age 36, MN
>The fact that we celebrate His resurrection on >Sunday is unscriptural because we are not >specifically so instructed in Scripture and >besides that we have abandoned the Sabbath for >it, and besides, Sunday worship has pagan >origins. Ditto our celebrations of Christmas, >and Easter. This isn't a debate about meat, drink, days, feasts, etc (Col 2:16) but a judging of the message, the content of which we are COMMANDED to judge and to hold fast to the truth. God bless you, Bob, for standing strong for the truth.
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/20/06 06:27:22 AM

Age 52, NC

Pastor DeWaay, I thank God for your discernment and willingness to confront error and deception in this ear tickling age. It might be helpful if you could share the article "Discernment in an Age of Deception...Defining the Believer's Biblical Call to Judge" on this site. There is obviously a lot of confusion over the matter. "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgement."(John 7:24)
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/19/06 02:09:50 PM

Age 35, TX

This assessment is so off, so bogus and Pharasaical it's hard to believe. Mr, De Waay, you yourself have made this an argument over the Gospel and fundamental doctrine when it was NEVER about these matters at all. Let me qualify that statement by quoting the "Be Still" Purpose Statement directly from their own website (bestillprayer.com), instead of a second-hand source such as christianbook.com. This is a direct cut and paste from the tab "Why Be Still": "BE STILL WAS CREATED TO ENCOURAGE BUSY BELIEVERS TO SLOW DOWN AND SPEND TIME IN GODS WORD. BE STILL WAS DESIGNED TO MEET THREE NEEDS: 1. SPENDING MORE TIME IN THE BIBLE, 2. REKINDLING AND GROWING IN INTIMACY WITH CHRIST, [and] 3. FINDING GODS PEACE AND REST IN THE MIDST OF A MODERN HECTIC LIFE. BE STILL was created to encourage busy people to slow down and grow deeper in their relationship with Christ by meditating on His Word. The DVD includes a section explaining the difference between Christian meditation (focusing on the Living God) and Eastern meditation (emptying of the mind). BE STILL introduces one form of Christian contemplative prayer called Lectio Divina (which is Latin for sacred or divine reading). Lectio Divina is simply the reading of Gods Word aloud for the purpose of listening, with the Holy Spirit's guidance, for what specific thing God might want that person to hear that day." As you can see, Mr. De Waay, the "Be Still" DVD is not a Gospel presentation. It's an instruction video for BELIEVERS for two purposes: Inspiration toward a more Christ-centered life through prayer and Biblical meditation, and instruction in some of the basics, i.e, solitude and reflection time with God. What gives with your scathing denunciation? If you want a presentation of the Gospel, then buy another video devoted to either a.) instructing believers on how to preach the Gospel (which you seem quote ready to do -- maybe you could make one?) or b.) the expounding of the Gospel for unbelievers themselves. The feedback from those rallying to your "defense" is as equally laughable as your assessment of the work. My question to you, sir, is this: Did you manage to get the GNAT that you were straining at so badly? I hope so because apparently you missed the CAMEL passing by you to inspire and instruct BELIEVERS in getting back to what is so truly important within the hectic, fast-paced western culture -- spending time at our Lord's Feet. (Mt. 23:24; Lk. 10:38-42)
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Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/23/06 02:20:01 AM Age 50, MS
In response to this current article, the person who posted earlier is right. Her description of the DVD is an accurate one in every respect. The target audience for this DVD is that of BELIEVERS who have already accepted the covering of the blood of Christ and who now are free to celebrate the intimacy that a relationship with Him affords. The DVD was a call to such BELIEVERS to separate themselves from the ever-increasing demands of this world to spend time in intimate fellowship with the Lord. I find it incredible that you folks find such a suggestion unscriptural because He calls us to it. For any who doubt that, go back and read the Gospels with a heart geared to hear His calling to a personal relationship with Him. He's pretty specific about the sort of relationship He desires with you, but you have a choice whether to accept what He offers or not. He did not just put His people on autopilot in the moment of His ascension. He is still personally involved in our lives. He is still watching, still elated when we serve Him well, and still disappointed when we fail. Still caring about us. You get to enjoy that marvelous relationship NOW folks. The choice is yours. Please note that this is not a salvation issue. But I do believe that spending time with Him in the sense that David discussed multitudes of times in the Psalms and that Jesus discussed and exemplified in the Gospels does enrich our lives and empower us to better do the things he's called us to. I give testimony, although I've seen personal experience condemned here, to His faithfulness in this. Almost two years ago we lost our youngest son in a terrible accident. He was 16 years old. If it were not for the Lord and His care, I would not have survived. For the longest time, I could not concentrate long enough to either read or pray. But I would spend hours curled up with my copy of the Scriptures held to my heart. He let me know in those hours that He was there, and that He does care. I didn't hear His voice in my ear, but I did hear it in my heart. I know it was my Jesus, and not some demon as some of you will declare, because of His fruit. That's how we are to know each other you know. And by the way, Mr. DeWaay, NOT ONE of the folks who posted on the other feedback list in ANY WAY denied the value or the exclusivity of Jesus self-sacrifice as the means of our salvation. It was acknowleged over and over again that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. What WAS reacted to was the categorical assertion that He no longer speaks to His people and that we are not to seek a place of private conversation with Him. My contention was and is that this is an unscriptural position, and such discussion will surely be misleading to babes in Christ and to those whose faith is weak.
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Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/20/06 06:30:07 AM Age 53, NY
Really? More Time at the Lord's feet or at the feet of an imaginary Jesus that you make up for yourself? Do you have any idea at all how utterly important doctrine is? Apart from Truth it is vain to imagine you are actually sitting at the feet of Christ. Apart from Rightly Dividing (handling accurately) the Word of God a persons faith becomes a fantasy of make believe. But of course actually learning from God instead of making His word to say whatever our wicked flesh might want to twist it to say makes some people quite uncomfortable as it exposes the reality they are not walking in the truth at all but in darkness with "an angel of light".
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Re: Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/20/06 12:34:02 PM Age 52, VA
Exactly!! -- False Doctrine is deadly.-- 2 John 9 -- Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/21/06 05:47:17 PM Age 35, TX
I agree with both of you that doctrinal error puts us at the feet of the wrong Jesus -- "another Jesus" as Paul so emphatically points out. (2 Co. 11:3-4) The trouble, however, is that the "Be Still" video is not pointing out another Jesus. It clearly delineates the difference between the practice of Eastern mysticism's brand of meditation and prayer and Biblical meditation and prayer. Bob failed to make his case that "Be Still" is guilty of doctrinal error. Bob made it a case of them not including a Gospel presentation -- big difference! He also charged Beth Moore specifically with the error that Exodus 33 does not teach that God wanted to meet with everyone, which verse 7 of the same chapter clearly notes that the Tent of Meeting was for EVERYONE --all of the children of Israel, not just Moses or the High Priest. Bob picked a fight where there wasn't one -- bottom line. He charged someone with error (Beth Moore) when the error was his own -- verse 7. And, He went off on a whole dissertation of the Priesthood of Jesus asserting that Moore and "Be Still" are trying to offer us another way in to the Presence of God. They have not done that. Bob is the one who should be apologizing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/23/06 12:04:47 AM Age 34, MO
TX, Rather than going over again Ms. Moore's poor exegesis as it relates to the Tent of Meeting, let us get to the larger (and related) concern: Moore's endorsement of the "Be Still" DVD is dangerous. Why? Because ATLEAST one of the participants (Richard Foster) does in fact teach Eastern Mystical "prayer" with all the bells and whistles (mantras, altered states of consciousness, etc..) After reading Foster's other works on contemplative prayer, one begins to clearly understand what he is really promoting on the Be Still DVD. Moore has been given all of this information, and yet still maintains the DVD is worthy of distribution. How many Christians do you think will begin reading some of Foster's works as a result of being introduced to him on this DVD? This DVD that Moore is endorsing is merely a primer. It's a deadly hook. I pray you look deeper into this issue. I reccommend you spend some time at www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com, read Ray Yungen's book, "A Time of Departing", and Brian Flynn's book, "Running Against the Wind". You'll then be in position to make a right judgement about the contemplative spirituality that has entered Christendom.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/23/06 03:49:20 AM Age 50, MS
MO, you are confusing the issue, throwing a second criticism into the pot. Mr. DeWaay's complaint, firstly, was Mrs. Moore's supposed misunderstanding of the Tent of Meeting. The original article stated categorically that God no longer speaks to His people, and that we are not to seek a personal place of meeting with Him. This is why folks got riled up, because we know this is not true. Somehow our insistence that He DOES still speak to us was twisted to mean that we've all abandoned the Gospel, though that is not the case at all, and for those who doubt that,feedback is still there to be read on the other story. So now you come along and you're throwing in a second condemnation--that she has allied herself with someone that you think practices some kind of wacky, humming sort of communion with demons and will thus drag multitudes of Christians out of their salvations. ENTIRELY different issue altogether. Now, I want to ask you whether you've really read these publications of Foster's, or have you only read some synopsis from somewhere or another? ??? Cause despite finding all sorts of negative things about many folks who are highly respected leaders in the Christian community, I really haven't read all that much, comparatively, that is negative about Foster. Certainly nothing that accuses him of the commnion with demons stuff. I have discovered that he is a Quaker, which explains something of his purported attitudes toward prayer and, particulary, the place of silence in worship. Like I told you before, I check things out for myself. I won't condemn anyone just because you or anyone else insists I should. Actually, that's a function that the Lord has reserved for Himself, anyway. Anway, a bit ago, I posted a piece about personl perfection and how it is that none of us are without significant flaw and how we condemn ourselves to solitude if we demand the unblemished for companionship through this life. But you know, maybe his spiritual awareness isn't a blemish. Remember when Elisha's servant woke up to find the city surrounded by horses and chariots? He was alarmed and asked Elisha, "What shall we do?" And Elisha answered that he should not worry, because those who were with them outnumbered the ones who were against them. Then he prayed that the Lord would open his servant's eyes and let him see. And so the Lord opened the servant's eyes and he saw that the mountain was covered with horses and chariots of fire. Yeah, I know. Too wierd. Definitely not a senario for today. But are you really sure about that? MO, we are in the midst of a huge spiritual battle. Hiding our heads under our wings will not change that. If you are keeping your eye on advances in technology, then you will know that we are very near implementation of such technology in ways that will enable fulfillment of the prophecies given throughout Scripture regarding the end times. In light of that and Scriptural accounts, I believe that the battle is going to become even more intense. And I believe that welcoming the guidance and empowerment of the Holy Spirit in our lives will be the thing that allows us to fulfill our intended God-given purpose through it all. Yeah, I know. That's too weird, too.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/24/06 03:55:21 AM Age 34, MO
MS, You are right we are "in the midst of a huge spiritual battle". In light of this scriptural truth, it is vitally important that we recognize the deception and danger of the contemplative spirituality advertised on the Be Still DVD for example. Additionally, we should make others aware of the names of those who directly or indirectly promote this danger. To do otherwise would truly be tantamount to "hiding our heads under our wings". Oh, by the way, I accidently answered at your other post your quetion here about whether I had personally read any of Foster's works.
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/19/06 09:42:50 AM

Age 36, IL

I don't think you get it yet. The majority of the feedback on your article didn't have anything to do with your defense of the gospel, but on your offense against a fellow believer. Your second article makes great strides to take the focus off the person and back on the message, but you are still attacking those who desire BIBLICAL unity and restoration within the body. I agree completely that the EC and many churches have abandoned the truth for something soft and fuzzy - including the Be Still and other videos disguised as the key to connecting with God. The gospel is a strong pill to swallow, but it does amazing things. Remember that Paul starts most of his letters with "Grace and peace to you." Stand firm, but gently instruct - "24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:24-26 (appropriately in context for this article!)
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Unity and Restoration?
Posted On: 11/23/06 10:03:06 PM Age 29, MO
I'd just like to say that I am deeply disappointed in the church. It seems that many who call themselves Christians want unity and restoration at the expense of the truth and God's word. This is a mistake. If we cannot fight and divide over the truth of God's word, then what can we fight about? In other words, what is more important? Is it true that almost any church is going to be criticized? Yes! And rightly so. Let us criticize for the purpose of holding one another accountable, establishing the truth of God's word, and iron sharpening iron. From what I can tell, this is what Mr. DeWaay is attempting, and so far, he's only getting flak from the body of Christ. This is a sad state of affairs, and I am personally embarrassed that supposed believers are more concerned about the continued ascendance of their Christian cultural icons than they are about scripture and the truth of God's word. May we repent of our sin and return to a Gospel centered message to the world.
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Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/19/06 05:14:54 PM Age 34, MO
Il, I am confused by your statement; "Your second article makes great strides to take the focus off the person and back on the message, but you are still attacking those who desire BIBLICAL unity and restoration within the body." First, where do you find that the person of Ms. Moore was attacked in either article? (Please provide quotes) Secondly, what do you find in Dewaays' two articles that is unbiblical? (please provide specifics) Third, how is biblical on one hand for you to rightly point out that the messge of the Be Still DVD is "the abandonment of truth disguised as the key to connecting with God", but then on the other hand it is somehow unbiblical when Dewaay states the same? Fourth, since you agree that the message on the Be Still DVD is "the abandonment of truth" then how is it that the participants (Moore, Foster, Lucado, etc..) are delivering on their "desire for BIBLICAL unity"? ERROR CREATES DISUNITY. The Bible does not teach unity at the expence of truth.
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/18/06 06:09:22 PM

Age 56, AR

Is there a website I can go to, to listen to at least part of the "Be still" DVD?
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Re: The Demise of Gospel Preaching in the Modern Evangelical Church

Posted On: 06/17/06 08:34:06 PM

Age 34, MO

Pastor Bob, I just finished reading "The Demise of Gospel Preaching in the Modern Evangelical Church". I can't tell you how much your article has opened my eyes. I see now that I did not properly understand what repentance means. In past gospel presentations to unbelievers I have obviousely been in error. Sadly, I think I have been espousing a form of "decision theology". You've given me much to think about. Much appreciation. Jimmy
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/17/06 06:52:43 PM

Age 34, MO

I, like MN, am hopeful that after having read both of these articles by Pastor Dewaay, the critics are starting to GET what is being said. Using the word search was a brilliant way of illustrating the ABSENCE OF THE GOSPEL on the "BE Still" DVD. Please be encouraged Pastor Bob, your defense of the gospel is appreciated by many of us.
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Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/23/06 02:16:03 AM Age 50, MS
Nah, we've just discovered how futile the effort is. I don't plan to post any more on this topic. Probably won't read any more either. But to reply to your question above concerning where Beth Moore's person had been attacked, start with the title of the previous article--"Beth Moore's Illicit..." The word illicit means "contrary to or forbidden by law", as in "illegal". Moreover, in common usage the word carries with it the connotation that the perpetrator willfully and deliberately participated in an act that is contrary to accepted morality. I think that in this instance, at the very least the word "illicit" was the wrong word to apply to Beth Moore's statement on the Tent, even had her statement been wrong. If this piece just had to be written, the word "thoughtless" or "mistaken" would have been a more accurate descriptor, but justification for even that is questionable. Also, it has not escaped my notice that there has been a subtile shift in focus between the two articles. I have a sense that something just is a tad off in the whatever's behind all this and it makes me uneasy. And now, MO, how about demonstrating some of the Scripture that supports your position here in the same manner that you demand it from others? Actually, other than casting stones, and trying to make points by fawning all over Mr.DeWaay, just exactly what IS your position. I provided plenty of solid Scripture in support of my convictions in the feedback on the previous article, specifically in response to your comments. You neither replied to a single direct question, nor did you attempt to Scripturally support your rather categorical statements more than very minimally.
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Re: Re: Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?
Posted On: 06/24/06 03:22:17 AM Age 34, MO
MS, FIRST: Rather than "fawning" over Pastor Dewaay, I was simply expressing my gratitude to him for his defense of the gospel. Additionally, I thanked him for one of his articles in Critical Issues Commentary which helped me to see some errors in my theology. (1 Thess. 5:12,13; 1 Tim. 5:17) SECOND: I'm not certain which questions I have not answered that were posed to me. If I've not answered one or more, please know it was not intentional. Would you mind asking again those questions you want answered? THIRD: Since undertaking a study of contemplative prayer, I have personally endured the painful experience of reading four of Richard Foster's works. He does indeed promote/teach Eastern Mystical meditation which he calls "contemplative prayer" (I'd be happy to direct you to the specific books/articles should you desire). FOURTH: As it relates to Ms. Moore, my position is simply this; Despite the warnings, she has remained steadfast in her endorsement of a project (Be Still DVD) that introduces people to the extremely dangerous practice of contemplative "prayer". FIFTH: I see no reason in restating the scriptural passages Dewaay already provided which debunk Ms. Moore's erroneous exposition of Exodus 33:7-11. LASTLY: I hope you will investigate what contemplative prayer really is. If and when this occurs, I am confident you will then appreciate the significance of Ms. Moore's faulty teaching of Exodus 33. Here are a few books and a website to get you started: "Running Against the Wind" by Brian Flynn, "A Time of Departing" by Ray Yungen, and www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com Respectfully, Jimmy owcgallatin@hotmail.com
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/16/06 10:59:36 PM

Age 69, TX

Thanks for rightly dividing the Word of Truth!I truly hope this isn't as wide spread as it appears. It has been so long since I have heard a song about the blood or Rapture.All they want to sing are these 7-11 songs: 7 lines eleven times untill it becomes a mantra.When the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,and with the trumpet of God,a whole bunch of these folks are going to be saying,"What was that all about?"I sure wouldn"t want to have to explain to them that I was wrong and and have to let them know what they are about to go through!!!
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/16/06 04:52:28 PM

Age 61, TX

Thank you! I'm so thankful that you still believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. You are right and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is getting more difficult each day to find true believers who believe that the blood of Christ is the only thing that saves. Sharon Weems Waco, Texas
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Re: Tent of Meeting Part 2 -- Whatever Happened to the Gospel?

Posted On: 06/16/06 06:37:22 AM

Age 46, MN

Where are all the critics now? You touched their sacred cow and they bellowed loudly as they defended Beth Moore's right to attack the gospel. Their idolatry of personalities has been exposed for what it is - their lust for personalities over truth. Perhaps they feel silly at tolerating the intolerable and beating the child that said the king had no clothes. Beth Moore may indeed have some great books and great teachings - but she now has a great responsiblity to repent from her participation in this DVD and get re-centered on the gospel. Perhaps she can then lead some of her followers back to the gospel as well. Thank you Pastor Bob.
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