Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 06:23:21 PM |
Age 70, AZ |
Agree entirely with the conclusions, but surprised it apparently took so long to come to a knowledge of the truth. It may be an example where friendships do matter and we don't want to throw over good and prized relationships if we don't have to.
We are in a time of compromise and deception. The discernment of spirits seems at an all-time low, though that is an observation from my limited perspective.
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Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 03:06:28 PM |
Age 53, MD |
I have never before heard of the Emergent Church, but your list of characteristics sound just like the liberal main-line denominations: Episcople Church USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, United Presbyterian USA, United Methodist, Unitarian Universalist, others. This has been their characteristics since the 1970's or before.
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 03/01/06 05:37:18 AM | | Age 53, KS |
As an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America pastor and Army Chaplain, I seriously enjoin you to relook your thumbnail analysis of the ELCA. Remember my friend, our liturgies are based on the lectionary and our services emphasize Word and Sacrament. We are proponents of a biblically based worship and life. Although there are elements in our church which you may find unorthodox, as I may, in all, the ELCA is not equal to the EC. Rather than emergent, we are part of the historic reformation faith. I don't think the EC would agree with phrases like sola scriptura, sola fide and semper justus et peccator! Relook my friend. You'll find an Evangelical Church not an Emergent Church in the ELCA!
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Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 02:38:39 PM |
Age 38, PA |
Jason,
Thank you for your interesting article about your journey. Your ability to critize emergent w/o name calling or personal attacks is admirable. Being a Bible colege student who is currently studying emergent, your insight is appreciated. As you pointed out, there are many areas of concern within the community. We should be informed and understand these areas as those who claim Jesus of Nazareth as our king. Those areas mentioned are key and not minor issues and therefore can separate those who are followers of the King and those who are heretics (knowingly or not). My concern about your article is 2 fold;
1. The absence of the positive aspects of many within the conversation and how muh of the movement is biblically sound. There are plenty of hereticl beliefss within emergent true, there are just as many heretics outside of emergent as well. We should not just pick out the negatives of those within emergent. We should also point out the positive aspects and build upon them with those who hold those views. Jesus didn't just toss a grenade into the crowds of Pharisees and Scribes. He laos sat, ate and had respectful conversations with them to correct their errors.
2. The length of the article was too short to do justice to this topic. Longer, more in-depth articles on this important movement would help keep overreaction in check and infuse readers with more understanding of the community.
Thanks for the article.
Jim Ricker
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 01/19/07 10:23:52 AM | | Age 63, OH |
As I am reminded of Matthew 23 this thought comes to mind. Jesus said these things about the Pharisees and teachers of the law:implied they were lazy,loved the praise of men,called them hypocrites, called them blind guides,told them they were greedy and self-indulgent,like whitewashed tombs,called them snakes and a brood of vipers, and the ones who kill the prophets. This conversation does not sound very quite or respectful does it. Lou
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 01/18/07 09:20:45 PM | | Age 61, TX |
I would also like to see more lengthy articles on this subject. For the sake of discussion, and in a non-confrontational way, I'd like to ask you to consider the following: Jesus may not have thrown any grenades at the Pharisees and Scribes, but He did confront them. In Mt. 22:29, He told the Sadducees they were wrong because they didn't know the Scriptures. In Mt. 23:3, He tells the disciples and crowds they must obey the Pharisees, "but do not do that they do." In Mt. 23, verses 13, 15, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29 are the seven Woes that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, calling them hypocrites, blind guides, blind fools, blind men, blind guides (again), blind Pharisees, full of wickedness, etc. Finally in verse 33, Jesus said "You snakes! You brood of vipers." I don't think He focused on any of the positive aspects of their religiousness, only their unscriptural hypocritical ways. I think we need to know how close some groups get to the truth, but only so we can be prepared to discuss the whole truth of the Word in an enlightened way with them when we have the opportunity. Example: Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 12:06:58 PM |
Age 47, OH |
This kind of false teaching seems to follow the Book of Revelations. This is exactly what we can expect to see more of in the future. It should not that surprising to us as Christians. This may be the beginning of the "one world religion" phrophecy. At least we are certain of the outcome!
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Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 07:11:20 AM |
Age 53, KS |
Jason, no doubt you have encountered some fluidity in the emergent church--however, your quick list of "no-no's" hardly convince me that you have done the critical synthesis required to provide me the "eaches" of why the movement is a threat. And threatening to whom? You however did not address the alternative either? Where is the church and what does it look like? How about Lutherans? Methodists? Baptists? In what measure are they similar to the Emergent church? If we're talking unorthodox, how orthodox are you? What is orthodoxy? So much more. Your article was interesting but not fulfilling.
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 03/10/06 09:06:04 AM | | Age 56, NC |
I am just beginning to look into the term "the emergent church", however, I recognize it from experience with certain friends and their lukewarmness toward Christ/The Word of God.
I would like to respond to the individual who asked "why is the movement a threat...and threatening to whom?" And his question, "where is the church and what does it look like?".
Any teaching of false docterine is a threat to certain hearers; (1) believers who are weak in the faith and (2)unbelievers who are being drawn to Christ. Solid Bible-believers are not threatened by false doctrine because they have so bathed their minds in Scripture, seeking after God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, that the indwelling Spirit gives them discernment to recognize the false compared to the truth. The deception will be so great in the end times (now?!) that even the elect would be deceived if it were possible. But it isn't possible because God sustains those who are His in knowledge and understanding which He has given them .
"Where is the Church...and what does it look like?" The Church, the group/body of all belevers, blankets the earth, and it looks like millions of "outposts" in hostile territory. Each believer (the church) is like a solid rock of God-given, ever-growing, wisdom, knowledge and understanding of Truth. The true believer is in the process of overcoming the world, his flesh and the devil by his testimony that Christ has bought him with His own blood, that self has died and it is Christ's life in him; and he/she loves Jesus Christ (of Nazareth, lately of the right hand of Power in heaven)) more than his/her own life.
The Church doesnt coincide with a demonination, the individual "churches"... men and women and children who are gazing at Jesus Christ, are being conformed day by day into His glorious likeness (vs a demonination's configuration).
Perhaps the next conversation should be what Jesus Christ "looks" like.
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- Re: Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 01/19/07 10:51:48 AM | | Age 63, OH |
Wow brother may God bless you with His mercy and grace through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I suspect you have walked a little traveled road. What a inspired response. I would like to give you something in return:
I asked God for strength that I might achieve;
I was made weak that I might humbly learn to obey.
I asked God for help that I might do greater things;
I was given infirmity that I might do better things.
I asked for riches that I might be happy;
I was given poverty that I might be wise.
I asked for all things that I might enjoy life;
I was given life that I might enjoy all things.
I was given nothing that I had asked for,
But everything that I hoped for.
Despite myself my prayers were answered,
I am among all men most richly blessed.
This was found in the pocket of a dead brother on a civil war battlefield. Lou
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 06:16:01 PM | | Age 50, NC |
Your response was exactly how I thought, and better put than I could have said. This article was completely nonfactual opinion. There nothing said that sounded negative about the Emergent Church other than it wasnt for him. Thats why we have freedom of religion in this country.
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- Uh...pardon?
| Posted On: 01/20/07 04:45:29 PM | | Age 18, MN |
Are you a Christian (and how would you define it as such)? I know that sounds blunt but I must know where you are coming from. One thing I must point out is that the EC does not really believe in absolute truth, which tends to really weaken (or even destroy) people's belief in alot of what the Bible says (since the Bible states that there is absolute truth). Have a great day!
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 02:38:03 PM | | Age 30, MN |
Thank you for your feedback. I would just like to point out that the purpose of my article was to share my personal testimony of my experiences with Emergent. My intention wasn't to provide a thorough critical analysis- which by the way I can assure you I have done. At the same time, I did recommend an excellent resource, D.A. Carson's book "Becoming Conversant with the Emergent Church", for anyone who would like to explore these matters further. Additionally, there are many articles on this website and others where you can find a deeper analysis of these matters. Thanks again for your thoughts. Sincerely, Jason Carlson
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- Re: Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 03/01/06 05:32:37 AM | | Age 53, KS |
Well I appreciate your sincerity on the subject while I was not pleased with the piece overall. Seems there is a heavy emphasis on polemics in your response and on this website. Agreed there are issues with the EC, and I have DA Carson's book, take us further when you do address it, give me something to consider that goes further than the 6 things you do not like. Talk about one of them in more depth. Thanks--all for the Kingdom.
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Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 06:58:43 AM |
Age 49, WV |
I do not understand your fear of what you describe nor your critizism, for those were and are the very same Peter Paul James and other used to describe the wolves who entered in to what they called the way and twisted it into what is called christainity in all its many forms . On a recent Lutheran flier for their christmas litheragy was an honest reading of the churches ways.we meaning christians and christanity had browed pagan ideas in order to worship more effectively, yet you worry about a futher twist and perverision and not what is called church doctrine which in and of its self is against what Jesus taufght himself,no you fear an open dispaly of what is hidden a futher extention of the lie so to justify what you hold as true. remember we who follow were told do not do as the pagan do do as the messiah did he lived as G-dly Jew keeping all of the jewish holidays he said when you keep the passover from now on do it in remberance of him .. all the changes were as those now to be more inclusive and win converts I see no reason for your fears. just a though from an ingorant fool in the hills many thanks for your learneded thoughts...
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- There are reasons for concern...
| Posted On: 01/29/07 08:51:07 PM | | Age 18, MN |
First off, I must ask that if you do reply to this post, if you could, please answer this question: "Are you a Christian and how would you define as such?" Now to the points that Jason had reason to be concerned: (1) If Truth is not absolute, the whole Gospel is destroyed, because then Jesus would not be the only "Way, Truth, and Life". (2) We should be inclusive in the sense that we welcome all people to become Christians (regardless of their history), but not to the point where we are allowing anti-Christian practices and people to dominate. You'd never allow an atheist, New Ager, Muslim, etc. to be the pastor of a Christian church for example or someone who was obviously being rebellious in their sin (whether on the hot issue of homosexuality or something like lying). (3) Jesus said in John 14:6 that He was the Way, Truth, and Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me (Christ Jesus). That's exclusive in the sense that you can't be a Muslim, atheist, New Ager, etc. and get into heaven. It's not exclusive in the sense that God welcomes all to come to Him and repent and trust Jesus and their Savior and Lord. (4) Since the EC puts personal experience and preference over what God says (and He made the world; He should know how it works from top to bottom), again we have the problem with issues like salvation, sin, truth etc. (5) Yoga and the like are a bit troublesome to define since I don't know a whole lot about them. I will say this though: I have no problem with people learning to keep their bodies in shape, but we need to keep in mind what these were meant for and what they say to people in the culture. When the Christmas tree was 'de-paganized', the culture in general was becoming more and more Christian. Our culture nowadays is becoming more and more secular/pagan. So when we practice these things, we are communicating something radically different than maybe what we realize. A parallel would go for the martial arts. I have no problem with Christians learning to defend themselves, but again, we need to ask ourselves, do we need to learn these skills with a pagan outlook (this applies to Christians teaching this, not non-Christians)? (6) Since they are questioning key doctrines of Christianity, that alone should send alarm bells to any Chrisitian. If our faith is not based in history, then we are wasting our time even reading the Bible. (7) I am going to say upfront: I do believe that you can be a Christian and a Catholic, because they do recognize the key doctrines of Christianity. This doesn't mean that all or even most are. We should, however, be honest with ourselves in pointing out that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have some major doctrinal issues nevertheless and they should be addressed. (8) Everything I stated above is somewhat summed up in Jason's point 8.
(9) If the EC is not concerned about people's souls and evangelism, that provides some good reasons to be critical of the EC.
(10) If salvation is by simply "hanging around for awhile and you're in", then the EC is simply treating Christianity as "a way" and not "the Way". This is dangerous, since people may end up being decieved into thinking that they will get to heaven when in fact hell is their destination.
Anyway, have a great day and God Bless!
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Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/27/06 12:34:40 PM |
Age 26, TX |
Thank you for the articles about the emerging church. This movement is dangerous to Christianity.Peace to all in Jesus Name.
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- Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 09:38:48 PM | | Age 57, VA |
I am saddened as I read articles like this and then read the comments. I had commented at length on another site concerning Bono and most of the responses were "judge not least ye be judged." or "Well, I don't know him so what point is it to delve into his past. But I do like some of the things he says and they seem relevant to me so he's worth listening to." or "don't know, don't care, think I'll go eat a hamburger now." I am amazed at the complacency, and lack of discernment and the unwillingness to study to show themselves approved amoung so many "christians." If someone does know the bible, and does use it as a plumbline for discerning truth, they are labeled "pharisee,"... blah, blah, blah! That is the trouble now a days- people are just too blahzay!! "Hey, you know, I just think..., I just feel..., I sort of kind of..., you know what I mean.... Well, one thing is for sure, God is love, so let's all be one big loving family and have a hamburger." Problem is that Satan is slick and slithering. You can't pin him down to anything. Same with the Emergent church- can't be pinned down to anything. Let's talk, let's see if we can figure God out together, what do you think, how do you see it, we think, you think, we all think." But the reality is unless it is what Jesus thinks it is all "stinking thinking." There it is again! I hear a "no fair, that's being critical and judgemental." Brother! The problem is a line has been drawn and you are either on one side or the other. In or out. There is no middle road with Jesus. And the road to life is the one less travelled. Karen
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- Re: Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 02/28/06 09:47:24 PM | | Age 36, MN |
Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen....I agree. Thank you for saying. I have posted comments on other articles where people are using Matthew 18 out of context and saying "judge not lest you be judged" out of context and talking about how we need unity. You can not have unity with darknesss. There can not be fellowship or agreement with unbeleivers on the issues of the Gospel until they repent and agree about their sinfulness and who God is. But I agree with you that people need to see what the Bible says in context instead of how they feel or what they think or repeat the liberal sayings of unity, and Matthew 18 and "judge not".....Good for you for posting your Biblical feedback.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 01/17/07 11:06:37 AM | | Age 23, BC |
Im actually amazed at how many people take the "judge not lest you be judged" scripture way out of context. It's like it's become the new 11th commandment or something. It has become a mantra for those confronted in their error and sadly shows that they are not willing to carefully examine scripture, but would rather adhere to popular opinion or lazy pragmatic mentalities. It's very sad that when these people stand before God their justification for such error will burn up, leaving them void of excuse. Lord help your people to discern rightly, according to Your Word.
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My Journey Into and Out of the Emergent Church
| Posted On: 01/21/07 10:31:25 PM | | Age 54, SC |
Amen and Amen! It gives me hope and encouragement to realize that some of the younger generation (post-modern) does understand the Word of God and has some discernment regarding the apostasies that are happening in these last days.
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