WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY
| Posted On: 05/18/09 09:36:47 AM |
Age 65, OH |
The 1st and 2nd chapter of the book of Job have two of the most amazing things in all of scripture. One thing that is impossible not to notice about most of the Christian churches is how the men in power guard the pulpit and will not allow anyone who disagrees with them to say anything. They say something like, this is the holy pulpit of God and I will not allow anything spoke from it that is not from God. Or, I will protect the people from things from Satan. It remains to be seen , how Holy their pulpit is, but the most Holy place in all that exists is the Throne room of Heaven. Surly no pulpit of any church can compare to it's holiness. Also any unholy person who may want to speak from any pulpit can not compare to the unholiness of Satan himself. Satan is the father of lies or the source of all lies. In the book of Job, God not only allows Satan in the throne room of heaven but then INVITES SATAN TO SPEAK. But God Almighty not only lets Satan speak, but then God records what Satan says against God and records it for all to read down through the ages. That is indeed freedom of speech, my friends. 2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY. - In this scripture, valid reasoning dictates that the converse is also true, in other words, where there is not liberty, the Spirit of the Lord is NOT there. When any ministry tries to stop someone who disagrees with their position from having their say, one can make a strong argument that the Spirit of The Lord is not in that place. - Lou Newton
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- So True
| Posted On: 05/19/09 01:14:58 PM | | Age 48, MO |
Lou: This is great because it brings many things into perspective. Not the least of which is that truth is utterly true and needs NO defense. This is a good reason for the use of obsurdity to illustrate the obsurd. No argument is needed when the obsurc is brought to a logical conclusion. Incidently, Christ was the master of obsurdity, calling Peter Satan, Pharasies dead men's bones, etc. Anyway, I digress. A second thing your post points out is that we don't need to sensor truth from lies because the Spirit will lead us ito all TRUTH. When we sensor truth, we codify and pacify the Spirit and our discernment suffers. John
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Thanks Bob
| Posted On: 05/15/09 02:37:12 PM |
Age 55, VA |
Thanks Bob, another excellent article. Another great book on this subject is one written by Gary Gilley called "Is That You Lord?"
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Bob
| Posted On: 05/14/09 09:46:16 AM |
Age 48, MO |
I hadn't read your first article so I am sorry if I misunderstand your premise. The premise seems to be that God is dead, or atleast His Spirit is dead. If so, then what you discerned to be true is not spiritually discerned. So then, did the discernment come from you or from God? If from God then is it because Scripture is alive or because His spirit is alive? If you think Scripture is alive, like some pastors believe, then you misunderstand that they point to Jesus who is the word. Scripture is not the word of God, Jesus is the word- GOD. Jesus asked the disciples who the people say he is, and they responded every which way but truth. Then He asked who do YOU say that I am. Peter answered that Jesus is the Christ. Jesus answered that the revelation is from GOD not Scripture, reasoning, or feelings. Bob, Scripture is NOT the final authority but when spiritually discerned, leads to Christ, the I AM. John
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- ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE
| Posted On: 05/15/09 09:47:39 AM | | Age 65, OH |
John, you are correct if what Bob says would be true, it would be the same as God being dead. If our only communion is with the Holy Scriptures then we would be saved by The Bible and not Jesus Christ alone. Paper and ink can save no one. It is when men look in the book to seek the Truth that The Truth speaks to them. The Truth is The Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ. - Lou Newton
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If...
| Posted On: 05/14/09 09:37:29 AM |
Age 50, MT |
...Scripture is the only place God speaks to us, then why should we read what you are saying? It is extra biblical! Every sermon, therefore, ought to be composed of only Scripture, since anything else fails your standard. You go on to say, "If we take these Hebrews passages to mean that we ought to develop the habit of listening to inner voices that may or may not be God's..." But sir, no one is advocating that we listen to any sort of voice. John 10:4-5 says, "When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."
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- Don't forget the Bereans
| Posted On: 05/16/09 09:54:41 AM | | Age 55, VA |
Paul the Apostle commended the Bereans for checking to if what Paul said was in agreement with what was written. Neither Paul the Apostle nor Bob D. is suggesting that we give up reading or listening to sermons given by men, but that when men speak we need to compare what they say with what is written so see if it is true. It is true that the true sheep (the elect) hear Jesus's voice and will follow. The problem is that many are deceived into following a false Jesus believing him to be the true Jesus. The best way to accomplish this is to ween the sheep from what is written(The Bible) so that they can't hear the true Jesus. This weening has become more and more prevelant as time goes on.
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- It is true...
| Posted On: 05/18/09 09:39:52 AM | | Age 50, MT |
...that the author of the article did not say "Neither Paul the Apostle nor Bob D. is suggesting that we give up reading or listening to sermons given by men." It was the conclusion I made. And it's a justifiable conclusion, because the author believes that God does not speak today. If God does not speak today, then every word apart from Scripture originates from man and has no spiritual value. However, if the Holy Spirit has a ministry today, then words of spiritual power can be spoken and weighed like the Bereans did. We can't have it both ways.
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God speaks still
| Posted On: 05/14/09 09:16:39 AM |
Age 34, TN |
I agree with you that God never speaks any new thing that contradicts scripture or modifies Biblical doctrine. Believing He does such is how we got all the cults that are out there. But, to agree with Lou, are we not led by the Holy Spirit? What if I am illiterate? I can't be born again and still know God's will, though I can't read it for myself? Yes, I can hear it preached, but doesn't the voice of the Spirit then have to confirm that what I'm hearing is true? Can not God warn us or encourage us personally in our walk with Him, or was such a thing only reserved for "speacial" people such as Paul and Peter? Like when the Spirit told Paul to either preach in one place, or not in another place at certain times, or God sending Peter to Cornelius.If you can't say God still speaks, you can't even begin to say that you have grounds to trust Scripture. Jesus says, "My sheep know my voice, and another they will not follow." Sincerely, Matt
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GOD HAS ALWAYS SPOKEN TO MEN
| Posted On: 05/13/09 04:16:33 PM |
Age 65, OH |
Bob, any man can go off the road to life on either side of the road. We can certainly watch men who claim to be leaders and are more like foolish clowns while they lead the people into all types of folly. We see these men preform on stage and TV and claim to be hearing from God while the things they do and say contradict the Holy Scriptures. But other men go off the road and into the ditch on the other side of the road. The fact that there are men going into the ditch on the left does not mean that you can not go into the ditch on the right. Jesus said the way to life is straight and narrow. The very children of Israel that you told about went into this other ditch. They even heard the very voice of God with their own ears but were frightened by it, instead of seeking to speak to Him face to face as Moses did. These people were afraid to trust that God could speak to them. But others were just as foolish and were deceived into thinking that their own wishes or the voice of Satan was the voice of the Holy Spirit. Both groups were foolish and were not allowed into the promised land. But Joshua went into the tent of meeting with Moses and even stayed to be with God when Moses left. Joshua spoke to God face to face as Moses did. This is why Joshua was chosen to lead the nation of Israel when Moses went to be with the Lord. The Lord Jesus Christ is the same today as He has always been and He never changes. We have men today who are deceived into thinking their desires are the voice of the Holy Spirit and also men today who are afraid to follow The Holy Spirit. The Lord Jesus has always spoke to men and He always will. The Lord Jesus spoke to Adam, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. Jesus spoke to all of the Prophets and all of the Apostles. Jesus still speaks to men today who want the will of the Lord and not their own desires. Jesus also speaks to men who are willing to Trust in Him to lead them and not afraid to follow Him. - But here is the real question; You say that you follow nothing but the Holy Scriptures, then please show me WHERE IN ALL OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES DOES IT SAY THAT GOD NO LONGER SPEAKS TO MEN AS HE ALWAYS HAS. Does not the Holy Scriptures say, "the sons of God follow the Spirit", there is not one place in the scriptures where it says to follow the Holy Scriptures as you are saying. - Lou Newton
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- Actually it does
| Posted On: 05/16/09 09:36:37 AM | | Age 55, VA |
I did a search on how many times the Bible says "it is written" and came up with around 100 times, Jesus himself said it many times. Check 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is WRITTEN." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. My personal experience proves this verse to be true. Everyone I know who claims to hear from God personally, outside of the Bible regards me as a second class christian because God has not seen fit speak to me extrabiblicaly. In context the message is "DO/FOLLOW WHAT IS WRITTEN!"
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- THE LORD JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD
| Posted On: 05/21/09 08:08:49 AM | | Age 65, OH |
I am aware that Jesus said, "it is written" many times. But Jesus never told us to look to scripture, but told us to trust in Him. You can not serve two masters, either the Bible is your master or Jesus Christ is. If you claim that Jesus can not speak then you make the Bible your master. The Bible tells us of God speaking to many, many people from the garden to The Revelation, show me ONE PLACE IN THE SCRIPTURES WHERE JESUS SAYS HE NO LONGER SPEAKS TO MEN, or that Jesus says He will no longer speak to men from some time forward. You claim to follow scripture, but you seem to follow your own beliefs instead, dear friend. Your argument is the same as the atheist, who says that he does not know God, therefore I can not know God. Because God does not speak to you, does not give you any reason to say God does not speak to me. I took a calculus course a few years ago at YSU and got an A in the course. But was surprised to see that over the quarter most of the students dropped out and even after the final a lot of students flunked the course. In fact most of the students did not pass the course. But it would not be valid for them to claim that calculus does not exist or that it is not a true math. I would even say that most of them could pass this course if they took another approach. They simply tried to apply the same methods that they have always used, when a new method was needed. We can not commune with God with our methods. God tells us in the Holy Scriptures, how we can commune with Him, and there is no other way. We have to give our total life to Him and trust in Him and NOT trust ourselves. I have been in many situations where I was aware that if I got the voice of God wrong I was in life or death situation. I simply put my life in His hands, and trusted Him to speak to me, He is able to speak to me and to cause me to hear. He did speak and cause me to hear, and my life was spared. I know God speaks to me everyday and no one can convince me that He does not. It would be like someone trying to convince me that my dad never lived and I never knew him. Is not The Lord Jesus Christ called the WORD of God in the scriptures. And now you claim that Jesus CANNOT express the Himself to us. The Word of God is the revelation of God to man. - Lou Newton
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- PAPER AND INK CAN NOT SAVE
| Posted On: 05/16/09 11:54:14 PM | | Age 65, OH |
Dear friend, I never once said that the Holy Scriptures did not say "it is written". To say it is written is not saying to make the book our leader. If we love Jesus we will obey His commandments. You have simply addressed the part of my response that you choose but you ignore much of my response. ALL of what God speaks in the scriptures is true and NOT just part of what He says. I have said we are to obey the commands of Jesus but you have seemed to ignore "the sons of God will FOLLOW THE SPIRIT". If what Bob says would be true, the scriptures would say, " the sons of God follow the scriptures". The pharisees followed the scriptures and were lost. The pharisees LOOKED to the scriptures and NOT to The Lord Jesus. That is what Bob is saying, that we should look to the scriptures, because Jesus will not speak to us. Jesus told the pharisees, in John 5:39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life. - We are not to study the scriptures thinking by them that we will have life, but we look in the book to learn of the Author and He gives us life. No book can save anyone, only The Lord Jesus Christ can save. - How many different groups of men are studying the scriptures as Bob says, and they all disagree. One group says we must be dipped in water to be saved, and they point to words written in the scriptures. Others say a person must speak in tongues to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ. One group is as wrong as the other. The Lord has said, and it is written, "the letter of the law brings death, but the Spirit of the law brings life". This is saying that the paper and ink or the words on the page bring death, it is only the Person or the Spirit of the Lord Jesus that can bring life. The words on the page are meant to cause a person to seek The Person of the Lord Jesus and then He can save them. When there is disagreement between mere men of what the Holy Scriptures mean, how is a person to know which group is correct. It is by seeking the Lord Jesus and hearing from Him that we can see the truth. Is it not written in the scriptures that The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. - I have shown you a scripture that says The Spirit will guide us. Can you show me a scripture that says what Bob claims is true; that we should NOT follow the Spirit. - Lou Newton
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