America, Alas, No Longer A Christian Nation...
| Posted On: 06/24/08 10:20:18 AM |
Age 66, MD |
Lots of info on this subject on our site. Hope you visit, please, and comment.
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
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Manipulation/motivation in the name of the Holy
| Posted On: 06/23/08 11:03:09 PM |
Age 55, FL |
Who can argue against the fact that the Bible, AS IT WAS PRACTICED by the 1/3 minority who were for the revolution, had a significant impact on the founding of the U.S.? Does that make it Christian? I think not! Throughout history, politicians of every stripe, even including Al Queda, use the religion of the people to help motivate and manipulate society at large, and to excuse heinous evil (ie. killing innocent citizens, exterminating natives or picking violent fights with government soldiers). Zealots of every stripe by nature have trouble getting the rest of us to support them. So they get all religious and bring deity onto their side. When people do something evil, (like rebel against the king-and kill his police) they need moral and political cover, so enlist religious authorities. Would any of us today argue that if today's "Christianity" resulted in the founding of a new America, that it would be truly Biblical? After two hundred years passed would supporters point to Binny Hin as proof of its Christianity? Undoubtedly. Even Czarist Russia believed they were following Christianity, as they were practicing it, when they declared war to stop the spread of evil democracy. When you are going to encourage men to kill other men, you need an unquestionable approval, hence politicians run to bring God/morality on their side. Even Hitler reportedly claimed to be on Christ's side when he was butchering innocent Jews. If we are properly brainwashed, or indoctrinated, WE will claim we are the people of God, and everyone else (THEY) are not. It always amazes me that people who appear intelligent cannot understand this simple fact of existence. Our citizenship is in heaven, NOT on earth. Like Abraham we are pilgrims. Nowhere does NT Scripture say we are dual citizens. Scripture pointedly announces we are citizens of heaven, to keep us away from worldliness, modern American, past Czarist Russian, or etc et al. Were the American colonial founders Christians? God knows. Those who claim to be believers have no excuse in failing to recognize the adulterous abomination of modern America. It cannot go back to whatever you think it was, because it never was what you think it was. For the America we live in, there is no excuse for patriotism, and you had better prepare for a pardigm change, because unless you understand their true citizenship, you are in for a moral trauma. In the meantime, we are to obey the governing authorities, unless/until they tell us to do something that would clearly be against what God has already told us in the Holy Scriptures he has provided for us. Any of you who make up your own scripture (ie Benny Hinn crazimatics) can keep on your merry way, you likely won't be joining us anyway when Jesus comes to take us to our country. May God be true and every man a liar!
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- JESUS IS THE JUDGE
| Posted On: 06/24/08 12:14:41 PM | | Age 64, OH |
When Abraham took the 318 men of his household that were trained for WAR and defeated the kings who had captured Lot and his family, surly you are aware that men were killed in this action. But it makes no difference for they had weapons of war with them and were ready to use them. On their return Melchizedek who was King of Salem (Peace) and also King of Righteousness, this Melchizedek blessed Abraham. Who is this King of Righteousness. There is ONE AND ONLY ONE King of Righteousness. We are told this Melchizedek had no beginning and no end, no father and no mother,and an indestructible life. There is Only One who answers this description and that is The Lord Jesus. So God Almighty blessed Abraham when he returned from war. Also read the story of Ehud in Judges and see that God lead this man to kill the King that God Himself had put in power. Jesus is the only Judge and you can not judge those who fought the revolution can you. Lou
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- It goes both ways
| Posted On: 06/25/08 01:19:16 PM | | Age 48, CA |
You love to use the OT as justification for war and Yet, Romans 13 says otherwise. Even when God does grant victory, it is for HIS purpose and when he is done with that nation, casts it aside. There is no room for the arrogant attitude that WE are Gods nation and commanded to go to war in his name. Such arrogance NEVER goes unpunished.
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- ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE
| Posted On: 06/26/08 05:24:19 PM | | Age 64, OH |
1ST of all, I never justified ANY WAR. You jumped to that conclusion yourself. But men are sometimes commanded to go to war by The Lord Jesus Christ. How many God's do you think there are. The God Almighty of the Old Testament is The Lord Jesus, is it not. Jesus never changes and His laws never change. It was The Lord Jesus who inspired Abraham to go to war to get Lot, and it was Jesus who blessed Abraham after the war. God never blesses men for doing anything that is their idea. God never blesses the work of men. If Jesus blesses something, then the whole thing was His idea from the start. You mention Romans 13 like it voids the Old Testament. Is Jesus a liar and what Jesus said in the OT not true. No scripture voids another. Some scripture is fulfilled but none is void. Any person who follows the letter of the law, or the Book, will be brought to death. For Jesus says in the scripture that the letter of the law brings death. It is The Spirit of the law ( or Jesus) that brings life. We do not follow Romans 13 but the Author of Romans 13. Romans 13 was written for our instruction, but not for us to follow after it. It simply tells us that we are not to be rebellious for no good reason against the government. This is the same scripture the cowards that lived among the German people used, to say they could not help the Jews who were being killed. These cowards watched little children being carried away to be killed. There were a few good people in the land who stood against the government and helped these children. Most of them died alone with the Jews. But they will not be forgotten and Jesus will reward them for their actions against the government. For you see they did not look to Romans 13 but looked to Jesus. Lou
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- Sad Response
| Posted On: 06/24/08 10:45:36 AM | | Age 48, AL |
Upon reading your response, it appears that you have put up a barrier between Christians and everything else. Your claim that this nation was created and THEN the Bible was used to justify it does not parallel history in the least. It only justifies your isolationist attitude in your own mind. In fact, many of the founding fathers were torn in their decision to rebel. Their rebellion was not borne out of simple rejection of the king for some other system, but the failure of the king to uphold God's laws, thus forcing upon them attitudes that were contrary to Scripture. Furthermore, history confirms that the British fired first on the Colonials, not the other way around, although once again, you seem to have distorted history to justify your own version (revisionist history is ripe within your response). To compare the American Revolution with Czarist Russia is disingenuous at best, but the reality is they are not even close to comparable. The facts are that Christian ideals developed from the Bible established this country. The country is operated by sinful individuals, so it will never be a Christian country. However, it did and still can have Christian foundations. But when people like you who have apparently abandoned the public forum (unlike many men in the Bible who sat at the public gates), you abandon the country to those who would establish laws that oppose God's word. Then we are back to the condition prior to creation of these United States of America. Would revolution again be justified? It would only depend on the extreme to which this nation sinks, particularly in the absence of a moral compass as provided by the Word.
Additionally, Hitler was a Darwinist, not a Christian, and the claimed reports that he "was on Christ's side" while butchering Jews is a fabrication. He did con some clergy into supporting his regime, but those clergy were not standing on a Biblical foundation, instead conforming to societies norms instead of God's. Again I ask, is that what you would prefer, or should Christians take a stand to help maintain at least some semblance of a Christian foundation for this nation? I for one do not plan on abandoning this country, even as I serve my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ in all I do.
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YES
| Posted On: 06/23/08 01:55:02 PM |
Age 61, MO |
I would have to say that indeed America was founded on a Christian Worldview, even though God's Natural Law was not expressly written into the Constitution. So many of the early Americans just naturally assumed that God's Laws (Common Law) was supreme, and followed that Law primarily until the industrial revolution took hold in the land. Only then did political law begin to rapidly creep in. This is not to say the U.S. was ever predominantly a "Christian Nation." It was not. The love of mammon and greed were present from the onset. The slaughter of the native American Indians and ownership of slaves cannot be justified or rationalized. But the flavor of God's absolutes of right and wrong have prevailed until most recently. Over just the last few generations have we witnessed many children who have no concept at all of abolute right and wrong. In times past, even those who were not Christians still were guided by the Christian moral ethic. George Cancilla
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There is no doubt
| Posted On: 06/23/08 09:12:35 AM |
Age 48, CA |
That the Founding Fathers believed God's hand was in the founding of the nation. Washington knew more than anyone else that it was not by his own streanth that he won.
But Washington would later express some regret bemoaning how everybody was so united against the British and now so much at each others throats. This Rural vs metropolitan conflict of ideas continues to to this day. The conduct of this nation does not always reflect Christ. Not in the way the Indians were treated, the greed of Western migration, the gold rush, The institution of slavery, and other blemishes.
Even before the nation was founded, the Colonists expressed some disturbing traits.
The Witch hunt in Salem was an outright show of a lack of faith. How can a witch have any mystical power over a believer?
During the French & Indian War, a Colonial Militia decided to retaliate against the Indians after a town was wiped out to the last man, woman, and child. Had they done so against the actual tribe who did it, there would have been at least some form of justice even though Christ commands :Do not reward evil with evil". But to make matters worse, they not only retaliated against a tribe which did not do it but against one of the few tribes who converted to Christianity. The entire tribe died on thier knees praying to Christ to forgive thier oppressors. We are clearly in no position to proudly boast of our Christian heritiage. From the time we were still colonists, there were flaws.
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- THE MORE SIN THE MORE LAW IS NEEDED
| Posted On: 06/23/08 08:34:39 PM | | Age 64, OH |
Because men are sinners should the law of God be thrown out. Because the men of this nation are and have been sinners is all the more reason to make the laws of this nation Godly. The more sin that abounds the more the need for God's laws. Lou
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- Law vs Grace
| Posted On: 06/24/08 10:41:02 AM | | Age 48, CA |
Christ is not about passing laws to keep people in line. He is about changing people from within so law is not needed. The last thing we need are "Christian SWAT Teams" with "Crosses on thier kevlar" enforcing Biblical Law as seen in their eyes. I do believe Christ had the utmost contempt for the Scribes & Pharasees who did just what you are calling for. Who is worthy of taking charge and wielding such power?
The religious right has flushed its credibility down the toilet with its war on terror and gospel of bombs & bullets. As people talk of "Those evil Muslims" Christ might just reply "Let he who is without sin press the first bomb release"
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- THE LAW IS NEEDED FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW JESUS
| Posted On: 06/24/08 11:59:15 AM | | Age 64, OH |
Jesus is the same today as he was yesterday. Jesus had Moses write the law for those who did not know Him personally. The law has NOT passed away but is still in effect for those who do not have the Holy Spirit of The lord Jesus Christ. As you so often say this nation is full of those who do not know Jesus Christ. How will these people know what is right and wrong without the Godly laws. Speaking of the law of the Spirit of Jesus: here is an example: Two Kinds of Wisdom
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness. -- Lou
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- Misdirected Comments
| Posted On: 06/24/08 10:53:59 AM | | Age 48, AL |
It appears that you have read a HUGE amount into the previous post. Not one word implied some form of SWAT team approach, but rather to influence law from a Biblical foundation. By creating extreme scenarios not even mentioned in the post, you have created a straw man argument that is unrelated to the post, but is only written to help support your position. Lou nowhere said he was interested in using force to demand Biblical laws were put in place. You in fact allude to the whole approach when you correctly talk about Christ changing people from within. By Christians engaging in the community, we become disciples for Christ as we spread the good news and even as we help tailor law from a supportable foundation of the Bible instead of the whimsical approach of laws based on contemporary culture which is here today and gone tomorrow. To compare Christianity as a basis for developing law with Islam is a very poor comparison indeed. One is developed based on love versus the other based on hate and murder. Nowhere in Lou's post did he prescribe bombing those with whom we disagree. Let's not raise the rhetoric unnecessarily.
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- A law is only as good as ones ability to enforce it
| Posted On: 06/25/08 10:27:00 AM | | Age 48, CA |
If left to their devices, the Religious right would indeed have SWAT teams with Crosses on thier Kevlar kicking in doors and machine gunning heritics in the same manner that are currently blessing the bombs being dropped on "Those evil Muslims"
Let he who is without sin press the first launch button.
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- THE MARK OF THE CROSS
| Posted On: 06/25/08 01:16:16 PM | | Age 64, OH |
Dear friend; please read Ezekiel 9. You will see that God destroyed every person in Jerusalem that did not have the mark. God told the angel to put the mark on everyone who grieved and lamented over the sin they see around them.- You answer back but ignore the fact that you accused me of things that I never said or do not believe in. Most people that I know would call that sin. The sin closest to us and all around us is the sin that we commit. DO YOU GRIEVE OVER THE SIN THAT YOU COMMIT. It is the only way to have the mark put on your forehead. The mark is the cross marked in the blood of Jesus on our forehead. Everyone should be able to see this cross on our forehead. It is on our head so should effect all of our thoughts and actions. Grace and peace to you. Lou
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- Really?
| Posted On: 06/25/08 10:24:11 AM | | Age 48, CA |
When one takes into account the Seven years War, all of a sudden the Colonists were not so innocent. Since the King did snd troops to protect the colonies, it was only faith that the Colonies pay thier fare share of the costs of that war. Did not Jesus preach to "Render unto Ceasar thge things that are Ceasars?' When the Coloniosts rebelled, they violated Romans 13.
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- Here we go again
| Posted On: 06/25/08 02:29:23 PM | | Age 48, AL |
Again, your assumption that Christians would become SWAT teams defies the basis of Christianity. By switching the nomenclature from Christianity to the "Religious right" you have changed the entire argument. No one is suggesting that religion solves the problem, but Brannon was pointing out the Christian ideals that established this country. The writings of our founding fathers BEFORE the establishment of the country are clear. The basis is the Bible, not any religion. So you need to get your facts and semantics correct before making unwarranted attacks on the statements being made. Also, again, no one has suggested some radical approach of violent enforcement except yourself. It is clear that you distrust Christians by erecting unsupportable and radical claims and clouding the issue by wordsmithing it into something it is not. History reveals that the extreme nature of the taxes England applied to the Colonies was NOT related to the Seven Years War or any other such event, but the desire to restrict the prosperity of the Colonies to enrich the King. As a country that had many different colonies, England had an obligation to support and protect all those colonies as a condition to maintaining ownership of those colonies under their rule. To unfairly apply taxes without any form of recourse was not only unfair to the Colonies, it was inconsistent to what was happening in most of the other colonies of England. The only difference was the prosperity of the future U.S. as compared to less prosperous colonies. Thus, your claim that the taxes were justified is hollow at best. Furthermore, you have misapplied Romans 13 by dismissing the fact that most of the governors of the Colonies at that time were not honoring their obligation to govern honestly, nor were they all following the rules established by England. If the Colonies were to give what was due to the authorities, the fact that they did NOT give what was NOT due (i.e. overtaxation, corruption, forced bribes, etc.) is not in violation of Romans 13. Also, when you look at the example of ALL Scripture, not just one passage, you will see that we must honor God first. When England or their governors demanded corruption, exhibited corruption and practiced torture and murder against God's word, the colonialists were not obliged to follow suit. Additionally, the Colonies did attempt to withdraw amicably from England to establish their own country. Since England responded with violence, the Colonialists were justified in defending themselves. I end with the irrational exclamation you make that we are dropping bombs on "those evil Muslims". You again use a straw man argument with that completely false statement. The fact that the majority of terrorists claim Islam as their religion is irrelevant to our defense against the terrorism. Your claim is nonsensical at best and undefendable with facts. We have not indiscriminately attacked anyone because of their Muslim beliefs. Nor does the United States practice that kind of violence. Many extreme Islamists do practice that kind of violence, however, even if you illogically equate Christian beliefs with Islam beliefs. You should really study the Islamic faith to realize the background is not based on the love of Christ, but on the hatred of Jews and Christians. Simply read portions of the Koran and you will realize this religion that is based on hate. Even still, the U.S. does not target Muslims, only terrorists. So your whole point is completely wrong as is the premise behind most of your arguments.
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- REASON
| Posted On: 06/26/08 05:28:57 PM | | Age 64, OH |
Amen, it is nice to see someone can reason. Lou
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- Distrust Christians?
| Posted On: 06/26/08 09:09:16 AM | | Age 48, CA |
Who are the real Christians? The entire mainstream line of Churches has gone insane. Some examples:
Dobson had Sean Hennedy appear on his radio program and proclaim "God has blessed this nation withthe most powerfull military which has ever existed and if we do not use it to liberate the world, God will judge us!"
Another Pastor chastised Bush for "Stopping in Iraq" Procaliming that we must cointinue on throughout the entire Middle East and then attack China. That we must not stop until the flag of America and Cross of Christ flies over every corner of the world.
Shall we discuss how many preachers are giving fiery sermons about "This evil Muslims vs us good Christians" And how Christ commands us to kill them?
Funny, I read that there are non rightious, not a one.
Any time your "Ministry" Involves passing laws, you are advocating the gospel of force. Such a gospel will be either totally ineffective because law does not change the heqart, it only restricts it. And people will not obey your laws unless you have the force necessary to enforce it so the only way your laws will have any effect is to have SWAT Teams with crosses on thier Kevlar ruthlessly machine gunning down all your heathens. The job of the Church is to change people from within, not to pass laws and force them to obey.
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- WHAT ARE YOU FOR
| Posted On: 06/27/08 04:08:55 PM | | Age 64, OH |
Your posts are all the same. If you read one you have read them all. Quite frankly to say they are tiresome is am understatement. You never answer the questions or counterpoints just keep giving out the same speech. if you are against laws, what do you suggest, that we live in a nation with NO LAWS. You are against almost everything, WHAT ARE YOU FOR. Lou
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- Agreed
| Posted On: 07/01/08 11:17:41 AM | | Age 48, AL |
It appears that 48,CA is promoting anarchy. He continues the same monontonous line of argument, yet apparently argues only against himself, since no one has suggested any of the extreme measures he opposes.
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