Rick Warren, please preach Christ.
| Posted On: 06/04/08 08:47:40 PM |
Age 34, PA |
It is great to see a dialog, the preaching one thing and having a doctrinal statement that is good is exactly the problem I see as well. If a pastor or evangilist believes in the Bible he will preach the whole thing in truth. Even the hard passages. If the man is not preaching what he has written down for a statement of belief then he is suspect.
God bless
Greg
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Remembering the Word in the Debate
| Posted On: 06/04/08 07:25:22 PM |
Age 100, TX |
Since DeWaay's message brought to Rick Warren was to preach Christ, maybe we should consider His words here: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." It is distrubing to see the judgmental spirit on this website of other's work and ministry. And, if 'Sola Scriptura' is the argument lets also consider Jame's words: "Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge...?" Nowhere in Scripture are we told be critical of another's work for the Lord. The false Gospel being referred to in Galatians, 2 Peter and Jude denied the power of Christ and His resurrection; there is no evidence that this is the case with Warren's ministry. While Rick might employee some non-conventional thinking in his approach to a post-Christian culture, Paul did tell us that he became all things to all people to win some to Christ. Only the Lord stands as judge of our works and if Rick is that way off he too will be judged by the only One able to rightly do so.
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- Remember the Word in the Debate
| Posted On: 06/07/08 03:42:05 PM | | Age 39, TN |
Age 100, from TX, you said, "Nowhere in Scripture are we told be critical of another's work for the Lord."
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them." -Eph 5:6-11, ESV.
"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." -1 Cor. 5:12,13
"...first take the log out of your own eye,
and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." -Matt. 7:5
"...you will know them by their fruits." - Matt. 7:20
How would one determine fruit unless a judgement or concludion was made? This is not a condemning judgement, but a discerning one, in hopes of bringing a brother to repentance restoring a brother to the truth (see James 5:19,20). It is a very loving thing to confront one you consider a brother, when you think he is teaching heresy or doing damage to the church. If I fell into some kind of teaching like Warren's, I would certainly hope a more knowledgeable and discerning brother would care enough about God's truth and about me to get me back on the straight and narrow.
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- Remembering the Word in the debate
| Posted On: 06/06/08 04:43:26 PM | | Age 00, SC |
I think Bob Dewaay handled himself as well as his concerns regarding Rick Warren quite Biblically. He went to his brother and while he confronted him, there was no rancor or judgmental attitude if all transpired as per this article. It is in stark contrast to those who criticize various ministries w/o first praying and then confronting the person in gentleness and humility such as represented by the author. That is what the Word tells us to do and it seems to me, that is what Pastor Dewaay did. So he DID remember how the Word instructs us to confront those who are in error.
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- Revisiting Remembering the Word in the Debate
| Posted On: 06/07/08 04:32:57 PM | | Age 0, TX |
The instruction that Jesus gave us in Matthew 18, concerning correction of a brother, is specific to one who sins against you directly. The heart of this teaching is clearly God's reconcilation and forgiveness. And, there is an initial caveat added "just between the two of you." DeWaay and others who attack, denounce or condemn, or seek to expose something they disagree with in anothers minsitry have no Biblical position to do so. They are standing in judgment, and so my previous comment stands. Even if one believes Warren is a "false teacher" (though that phrase does not actually appear anywhere in Scripture) 1 Cor 4:5 instructs - "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." We might not all like the teachings of other Christian leaders but if they claim to be in the faith then it is not for us to judge. I see no evidence to the contrary in Warren's ministry, though he is clearly no fundamentalist. DeWaay obviously went to Warren with a purpose (no pun intended) to write an article that denounced his ministry, albeit he was more gracious than some. DeWaay even begins by stating that his presuppositions were set to oppose the ministry. So let's do remember the Word in the debate; if we do we might find there is really no debate. Instead let us "accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God." (Romans 15:7)
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- Revisiting Remembering the Word in the Debate
| Posted On: 06/08/08 09:54:54 PM | | Age 39, TN |
Matthew 18 was not even mentioned in our argument, brother. There are many texts which teach us to discern who "false teachers" are and, if need be, name them (see 2 Tim. 4:10-15). It is the message we condemn... not the messenger... for we only long for him to be restored to the truth if indeed he is our brother... or come to a saving knowledge of the truth if he is lost. Check out these texts on false teachers (and the phrase IS in the ESV, NASB, KJV, and NIV) "As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine" -1 Tim. 1:3. "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" -2 Peter 2:1. "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" -Jude 1:3. And of course there were many false prophets in the OT. These "marketers" like Warren will fall... as will their churches... but the true church of Jesus Christ will live forever... praise the Lord!
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false teacher
| Posted On: 06/04/08 05:43:21 PM |
Age 55, IL |
Why not just state the obvious -- RW is a false teacher in the full Biblical sense. 2 Peter 2:1-3 -- if this doesn't apply to RW, then who? (Doesn't matter if he mouths come orthodox doctrine -- judge by fruits: Matthew 7:15-20.)
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The Gospel is preached at Saddleback
| Posted On: 06/04/08 05:34:19 PM |
Age 53, OH |
I did go to Rick's church years ago. I go now when I am in town. The last time I visited in April, I heard a clear-cut, gospel message. In fact it was as straight forward as any gospel presentation I have heard from Mark Cahill or Billy Graham.
I observed the Bible Studies offered to its members at a table outside the building. Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, The Truth Project were just a few. I saw people praying for one another on the patio and people getting baptized as they proclaimed their faith in Christ as their Savior, redeeming them from their sin.
My son hosts a small group in his home. They have a group of married couples, all fairly new Christians, eager to study the scriptures. They meet for prayer, share their struggles, look in the scriptures for how God would direct them. They came to Christ at Saddleback.
My daughter-in-law just got back from Rwanda. Her team worked with local church leaders, encouraging the saints, praying, reading the
It would seem that there are many other issues in our world that would require our vigilance than a church that leads people to Christ, grows them in their faith and sends them out to the nations.
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Statement of faith - Window Dressing
| Posted On: 06/04/08 03:46:11 PM |
Age 65, AZ |
If you read Benny Hinn and Todd Bentley and other apostate and false teachers' "Doctrinal Statements" you will find nothing wrong. However. the statement is merely window dressing, a cloak for the false teaching to disarm the unwary. Actually, it is a prostitution of the Holy Word of God. That is a charge that should make anyone shake in their unholy boots. It is a misrepresentation of sound doctrine and makes a mockery of it.
It is never wise to try to reason with a deluded pawn of the enemy. They are laying a trap and they and their apologists are very clever. As was proven, they took advantage of Pastor Dewaay's good intentions and twisted and misconstrued his commnets to mislead people into thinking that Dewaay had capitulated to Warren. Let that be a lesson to anyone in the future.
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BIGGER FISH TO FRY THAN RICK WARREN
| Posted On: 06/04/08 02:46:00 PM |
Age 58, TN |
I have never read the purpose driven book. And I really don't care what it says or what it promotes. What does bother me is people who attack other people. We've been leaders in "the church" for years and what I have come to realize is the religious spirit is alive and working over time. The Pharisees did the same thing to Jesus...He called them white washed tombs. Don't we all have enough on our own plates to concern ourselves with these others? Since when, did God call man to expose the sin of others? Isn't that the work of the Holy Spirit? In the last days we can expect many wolves in sheep's clothing to be raised up. I'm sure some may think you are a wolf...that's why we are not to judge others.
We're all guilty of finger pointing and faultfinding...there is no doubt in my mind...if I took a magnifying glass to your life I'm sure we would find some things that would shock the Body of Christ. Rick Warren and his movement is the least of our problems.
Come on people ...stay focused our Nation is being taken over by Islam..now that's something to be concerned about. Practice what you preach...repent and move on.
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- Does the bible say only the HS will expose sin?
| Posted On: 06/05/08 11:59:41 AM | | Age 43, IL |
Read Jude, Read Corinthians, Read Philipians. All of these books/letters were correcting those within the body of Christ who were off base and either preaching another gospel or acting in a manner inconsistent with the gospel (sins of commission and omission) We are to discuss and warn of those that "preach" another gospel. It is not the "judging" you so easily throw out in your verse of "Do not judge less you be judged" Discernment is judgement, but in a different manner. I am teaching my children to discern-yes judge, what they hear and to discern-yes make judgements about any man's/women's/preachers message. If its not the whole gospel where it is off it must be corrected (condemned). How many people are going to hell because they have believed in a different Jesus a different message. Words are words and they come from the mouths of men. We must speak the gospel for those to believe. And likewise we must speak and write and discuss why these things are true and right and when what is being preached is not true or right it should be open to judgement.
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'Statement of Faith' is what we actually preach
| Posted On: 06/04/08 01:26:05 PM |
Age 70, OR |
Blessings Pastor DeWaay,
It is one thing to "believe orthodox theology" as Rick Warren says does, but quite another to actually proclaim orthodox theology.
Many today point to their orthodox, fundamental 'statement of faith' while proclaiming faddish doctrines. It is a way of hiding.
But a statement of faith is not what we say we believe; it is what we actually preach.
Perhaps of the best pieces of advice I ever came across was: We should never preach anything which wouldn't take a Savior to die for!
This is of course why our message is to be "Christ-crucified."
This is the prism which the popular cliches 'seeker-friendly,' 'purpose-driven,' 'motivational speaking,' 'prosperity, health and wealth,' etc., needs to be put through.
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Pushing the same thing?
| Posted On: 06/04/08 10:36:20 AM |
Age 57, VA |
Well I enjoyed reading this article.I am not a follower of Rick Warren.However,if you are going to criticize or be critical of someones work in ministry or their written publications,it would seem a bit over the line by using your own expression "in my book...".
If you will stay away from your own authorship and stick to the facts as our Lord has revealed to you,it would make a more credible argument
for the preaching of the Gospel.
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I wish I could have been there!
| Posted On: 06/04/08 10:08:26 AM |
Age 33, TX |
First my age is not correct, on purpose. After being through two Purpose-Driven "Transitions" and experiencing the worst sort of ageism, I am extremely sensitive about this issue. I think the age requirement on this site should be removed. I am over 50 which disqualified me from knowing anything in PD circles.
However, if I do get posted, I want to say thank you so much for speaking in our behalf. I am convinced beyond any doubt that Modern Evangelicalism is in the throes of the most subtle deception in its short history. And there is probably no turning back. Warren is the leader du jour of a deformation of the Christian Church. The ideas and assumptions driving this movement have not been carefully examined, and are mindlessly parroted by thousands of undiscerning church members.
Frankly, if I were not a Christian, based on what I am seeing happen in the churches, I would not become one. I see nothing I need in the churches. I can easily get exotic coffee, loud simplistic music, and self help advise elsewhere, along with a host of other commercial and material amenities. What happened to things that only God can do? Like holiness? Silliness, superficially, and materialism abound. The Temple needs a cleansing. Keep up the good work. And have you heard Paul Washer preach? Not everyone has bowed the knee to Baal. WS
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- you are so right
| Posted On: 06/04/08 05:03:14 PM | | Age 47, IL |
You are so right. I too have noticed the creeping surrender in many good churches. There is a subtle war underway to alienate bible believing conservative christians. This is being done on multiple fronts. Politically we are alienated. We don't have anyone who is vying for our support in the presidentail race. The churches are calling us divisive and "in your face". I do EE and am currently teaching Way of the Master. When I talk to pastors and lay people about the need to make sure people understand they are lost before they would even want to be saved they dismiss me. All of the bulletins in our church use words such as "casual dress, a place to have fun, come and make some friends, etc..." While all of those things are good they do not attract people who are lost.
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- Oh, I see now
| Posted On: 06/05/08 07:56:00 PM | | Age 0, TX |
After reading the posts of those who denounce Warren, I understand their argument now. If you don't let people know that they are hell-bound due to their awful sinful state then you're not preaching the Gospel. This extremely narrow view of Scripture is not the Gospel that Jesus, Peter, Paul, James or John preached. Yes, it's important to come to an understanding of our sinful state apart from Christ's redemption and yes Hell is a reality. But Jesus used the language of damnation only with the most hypocritical folks he encountered, like some who post on this site. Peter when he stood up to proclaim the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost only said to "repent (for clarification that is to turn turn from the direction your going) and be Baptized (follow Christ's example)" mentioning nothing of Hell and damnation. Yes, the unregenerate will perish in Hell for eternity. The Bible makes that much clear but that is not the Gospel - only a sad reality for those who reject it. First, we must lead people to Jesus as Peter did on that fine day by telling folks who Christ was. But before we can even do that we need to get their attention, as Peter did. Second, in a post-modern world it's shere arrogance to think we can begin with the message of damnation; the actual history of such theology is actually rooted historically in the Roman Church. And, third, let's remember mercy triumphs over judgment. There is some good stuff on this site but when we attack other Christian leaders we seriously miss the mark.
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Re: My Visit to Ask Rick Warren to Preach Christ
| Posted On: 06/04/08 09:40:19 AM |
Age 21, NC |
I'd have saved my gas money and turned them down. I'm pretty sure Rick's mind is made up, his heart is hardened, and outside of divine intervention I don't think that's going to change.
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- Rick paid for the trip
| Posted On: 06/04/08 04:50:33 PM | | Age 37, MN |
don't get all excited about Bob and Chris having the guts to go to Rick's face...
THAT is not a Biblical requirement for confronting false teaching. in fact the opposite is true. We are to publicly mark false teaching and correct it, so that all will understand what they heard that was wrong and hopefully be able to repent of it and weed it out of their thought process.
21, NC, Bob and Chris and everyone were invited on Rick's dime, so they didn't waste any gas money.
Those who declined the invitation also have my respect, BOTH that group and Bob and Chris did what they did for good and biblical reasons.
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