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Did The Founding Fathers Sin By Founding America?
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Duties as Christians
Posted On: 06/22/08 11:25:39 PM Age 51, MS
This discussion is so crazy. Of course we are to make decisions for our lives based on Biblical principles. To say that we should blindly obey and submit to orders just because our government says to is beyond stupid. If this were true, then we would all receive the mark of the beast without question. We all know where the Scriptures stand on that one. So, just because a government's in authority all you folks think that China should be able to force the annihilation of probably billions of its infants, and the women should meekly submit to those force abortions because they are called to "submit to authority". And what's his name in N. Korea is to be revered and obeyed because he is in power because he saps so much from his own people that many of them are literally forced to eat soup made of boiled grass! Come on, folks! Jesus Christ did not call for us to roll over and play dead. He called us to be salt and light...that means we are to stand boldly for what is right. We are to season and preserve, to irritate and to heal. And we are to dispell darkness. Not submit to it. Folks, today we are submitting in it and wallering in it because we have mistakenly accepted the idea that we are supposed to be pacifists. He said about himself that he did not come to bring peace, but a sword...He did not come to create some amalgam of good and evil that we could all waller in. Anyone who thinks that this nation was not found by Christians on Christian principles needs to go seek out and thoroughly read the ORIGINAL versions of our founding documents, beginning with the Mayflower Compact. If the founding of America was unscriptural, then so was the Exodus of the Hebrew people from Egypt.
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The Church is not an institution
Posted On: 06/04/08 09:58:08 AM Age 52, MI
I know this was not the subject of the article but God did ordain the family and Government as institutions but not the church, as was advocated near the beginning of the article. The local church is a cultural not a biblical phenomena. It was cultural in the New Testament. There is nothing in the Bible that tells us how frequently to gather together or even what that gathering should look like. I have no obligation to a local church institution or it's professional officers. It has no authority over me or anyone else biblically. We have responsibiliy to one another and that repsonsibility is spelled out in the New Testament but we do not have authority over one another. No local church institution will stand before Christ only individuals. There will be no community judgment. So elevating the church as an institution is an irrelevant issue. God has given human government authority, so I have an obigation to figure out how I will respond to that authority biblically. I have no problem with the founding fathers plan to establish another governing structure for the people. They were not advocating anarchy and were faced with a growing belligerent English government and King. However, declaring independence came with a price. This newly established government has a legacy of consequences--two of them being slavery and native Americans that were clear violations of the rights they claimed for themselves. God establishes all governing powers. And those governing powers for good or ill fulfill the plan of God in the world.
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  1. BABYLON
    Posted On: 06/04/08 03:28:13 PMAge 64, OH
    The Lord Jesus established Jerusalem as His city but when the men became so evil he sent Babylon to destroy it. Nebuchadnezzar was sent because of his wisdom but when his evil grandson became King God sent Persia to destroy Babylon. The Pilgrims were sent to this land by God Almighty and now this nation has become more evil than king George was at his worst. So this nation "Babylon" will fall in " one hour" as the whole world watches. Lou
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Another Revolution?
Posted On: 06/04/08 09:09:39 AM Age 63, AL
The Founding Fathers revolted against a despot that was slowly but surely taking the rights and properties of the Colonies away. What is happening today in the same land? Legalized abortion, that has killed over 40 million children. That surpasses Hitler, Stalin and Herod. How many more will there be. Murder according to the Lord is sin. Legalized homosexuality has been the law of the land for some time and now legalized homosexual marriage is also the law. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Homosexuality according to the Lord is sin. The government has set in motion through laws that they can take private property away from an average U. S. citizen for no reason or for their benefit with out just compensation. Stealing according to the Lord is sin. Our government officials put power and greed above them as a god. Worshiping and putting other gods other than the one true living God according to the Lord is a sin. Our government officials see something that other people made, built, or have, that they want and take it. To covet according to the Lord is a sin. Our government officials have no respect for marriage. They commit adultery as if there was no marriage vows. Adultery according to the Lord is a sin. That is 6 out of 10. I'm not judging, just stating facts. God knows I'm not perfect, just forgiven. Seems to me, that what England was doing to Americans during the colonial days, is what the United States government is doing to it's Citizens today. Are we not to live at peace with all men, if at all possible? HHmmmmmmmmm In Deut. 27 there is a long list of "curseds". It reads like the front page of todays newpapers. Magazines make millions and millions of dollars off of what our elected officials do in office while on duty and in their private lives. Of course our elected officials also make millions and millons of dollars illegally off of our tax money and use it for many of those "Curseds" and Commandments. When elected officials,that put them selves above the law and deem elections unacceptable and inadmissible because they lost, and then turn the elections around and stay in office or do that with "their laws" with the laws that are already on the books and get unelected judges that have taken it upon themselves to rewrite Constitutional Laws to reflect what they want a law to be, rather than what the laws actually mean and what the people want and what they should mean, what should the people do if they can't get the elected people out of office by their vote?
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Further thought
Posted On: 05/31/08 04:00:33 AM Age 60, KS
On further thought, I find myself asking why this question matters to us. There has been a tendency in the believing American Church to sanctify our nation's origins and founders; largely, I think, contrary to historical accuracy. Granted that interpretation of our history is generally perceived as being "patriotic," and has had tie-ins to the rewards of political power in our recent past, it seems the passions that attach to questions about America's origins go deeper than that. I wonder if the effort to anoint America's past and its great men springs from a belief that America's standing with God depends on our national "Christian heritage." If that's the operative thought in these questions, it needs to be measured against scripture. Or maybe there's no thought here deeper than our own tendency to flattering self-deception. That too should be measured against scripture.
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THE LORD TOLD A MAN TO KILL THE KING THAT GOD HIMSELF HAD PUT INTO POWER
Posted On: 05/30/08 02:19:42 PM Age 64, OH
Some say, "Nowhere in Scripture do we see the right to overthrow government". But we read in Judges WHERE THE LORD DID TELL EHUD TO OVERTHROW THE KING THAT GOD HIMSELF HAD PUT IN POWER 3:1 THESE ARE THE NATIONS THE LORD LEFT TO TEST ALL THOSE ISRAELITES WHO HAD NOT EXPERIENCED ANY OF THE WARS in Canaan 2 (he did this only to teach warfare to the descendants of the Israelites who had not had previous battle experience): 3 the five rulers of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites living in the Lebanon mountains from Mount Baal Hermon to Lebo [a] Hamath. 4 THEY WERE LEFT TO TEST THE ISRAELITES to see whether they would obey the LORD's commands, which he had given their forefathers through Moses.-- 12 Once again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and because they did this evil the LORD GAVE EGLON KING OF MOAB POWER OVER ISRAEL. -- 14 The Israelites were subject to Eglon king of Moab for eighteen years.-- 15 Again the Israelites CRIED OUT TO THE LORD, AND HE GAVE THEM A DELIVERER—Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab. 16 Now Ehud had made a double-edged sword about a foot and a half long, which he strapped to his right thigh under his clothing. 17 He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man. 18 After Ehud had presented the tribute, he sent on their way the men who had carried it. 19 At the idols near Gilgal he himself turned back and said, "I have a secret message for you, O king." The king said, "Quiet!" And all his attendants left him. 20 Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat, 21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly. 22 Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it. 23 Then Ehud went out to the porch ; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.-- 26 While they waited, Ehud got away. He passed by the idols and escaped to Seirah. 27 When he arrived there, he blew a trumpet in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went down with him from the hills, with him leading them. 28 "Follow me," he ordered, "for the LORD has given Moab, your enemy, into your hands." So they followed him down and, taking possession of the fords of the Jordan that led to Moab, they allowed no one to cross over. 29 At that time they struck down about ten thousand Moabites, all vigorous and strong; not a man escaped. 30 That day Moab was made subject to Israel, and the land had peace for eighty years. -- THE LORD RAISES UP AND TEARS DOWN THE KINGDOMS OF MEN. Lou
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  1. Notice that God Spoke Directly To That Man?
    Posted On: 05/30/08 07:12:01 PMAge 40, NH
    Scripture records God raised up Ehud to deliver Israel. That is direct intervention and instruction anointed as a judge for His people who had a covenant with Him, not a pluralistic nation) from God. Ehud was directed (direct revelation from Yahweh to Ehud)to be His instrument to liberate Israel. Do any of the founding fathers claim direct revelation from God to break away from Great Britain? If so, did Yahweh also tell whoever this 'judge' to set up a pluralistic society but not make a covenant with that nation? To be accurate to the word of God, this was not a breakaway colony nor was it a rebellion. Moab did not control all of Israel. Eglon was not king of Israel, he was a king who by invasion controlled only a portion of Israel. Israel cannot be legally in control of any part of the borders promised to Abraham but can only occupy it until evicted by Him. There is no real analogy between the colonist's revolution against the proper authority of the crown (no matter if desired or not. Pretty sure Israel didn't like the Romans)and Ehud rescuing a part of Israel from an occupying force because he was appointed specifically and personally by Yahweh. Grace and Peace, Jim
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    1. WE DO NOT KNOW HOW GOD LEAD EHUD
      Posted On: 05/31/08 09:42:30 PMAge 64, OH
      If we desire to see what the scriptures say then: scripture does NOT say how God raised up Ehud to deliver Israel. 2nd - all the discussion in the world does NOT change the fact that the scripture says God raised up Ehud to kill a king that God had put in charge of Israel, when the people of Israel turned to God for deliverance. The circumstances do not determine why God did as He did. For the scriptures say that God raised up a man to deliver the people when they turned to God. The king was a bad king and God shows it is the will of God to deliver the people from a bad king when the people turn to God. No man can say how God lead Ehud or no man can say how God lead or did not lead the men of the revolution. Lou
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WE CAN NOT JUDGE THE MEN OF THE PAST
Posted On: 05/30/08 10:39:37 AM Age 64, OH
I have been a student of history since my childhood and have come to learn this one thing. We can not look back into time and see the truth of what happened in any event of history. We can and should study the past to learn the lessons it has to teach. But we can not JUDGE the people of the past anymore than we can judge the people of the present. No man knows my heart, let alone someone who has never met me or never been to my house. Jesus knows my heart better than I know myself and yet Jesus reserves judgment until the proper time. Jesus shows me mercy until my time is up and then He will judge me. But we are not to judge, for Jesus is THE Judge, and we as mere men fall so short of the qualifications to judge. We as mere men can not know what any man said or did, for sure, in the past. It is hard to find out what any man did yesterday, let alone 200 to 400 years ago. We can only read what these men wrote of themselves and of others. We can not know what God directed any man to do unless God reveals it to us. Sometimes men are directed by God, and even the ones directed are unaware. We can study the American Revolution but we can not know the hearts of any of these men. We can not know if they were directed by God or by their own desires. But this we do know, The Lord Jesus Christ directs the building up and tearing down of the kingdoms of men. He will continue to do this until He comes to reign on this earth Himself. The Kingdom that is to come is our hope and not the kingdoms of men. We are to follow The Lord Jesus Christ from moment to moment until that Kingdom comes. Grace and peace to all. Lou Newton
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DUAL CITIZENSHIP
Posted On: 05/27/08 10:57:38 PM Age 44, MS
Neither McArthur nor Howse deal with the Biblical concept that as American Christians we have a dual citizenship: we are citizens of both Heaven and America. Thus, we are to pay taxes to Ceasar while also supporting God's kingdom. Our responsibilites as Christians stand distinct from our obligations as citizens. Thus, the American Revolution was NOT a Christian Revolution. Christians joined together side-by-side with American Jews and unbelievers to fight a Revolution as fellow Americans - not as fellow Christians. (Christians - in their capacity as Christians - should focus on building the spiritual kingdom that is not of this world. The Church as the Church - while taking a stand on moral issues - should not be involved in political issues. On the other hand, an individual believer in his capacity as a citizen should be involved in politics.) The founding fathers, however, did fight the revolution based upon a Judaeo-Christian ethic. This is not to state that Christians - acting in any capacity can ever violate Scriptural principles - but simply a recognition that Christians often act upon principles which are not directly related to their main calling to evangelize the world. In other words, God does not call us - as Christians - to fight against tyranny in this world. The mission of the Church is NOT to save the culture or a nation, but to save souls. However, this doesn't mean that acting as a citizen of America, a believer cannot take a stand against tyranny.
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Disagree
Posted On: 05/26/08 09:53:38 PM Age 60, KS
Perhaps a pertinent scripture is I Samuel 15:23, in God's words rejecting Saul as king: "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (KJV). Whatever other way the founding fathers may be characterized, they were manifestly rebels against a legally-constituted government of which they were citizens. It was only BY their rebellion against that government that they became "founding fathers" of the new nation. They unquestionably saw themselves as rebels. It was to legitimate their rebellion that they published the Declaration of Independence, with its list of George III's offenses which (they believed) justified their rebellion. Their justification was that governments are instituted to secure men's God-given rights ("Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"): and have a further right to "alter or abolish" any government that becomes destructive of those divinely-appointed rights. The founding fathers' theology of "rights", with its operative idea of human entitlement...much less their justifications for a sin God considers equivalent to witchcraft...seems to me pretty contrary to normative Christian understanding of God's sovereignty and God's Kingship.
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  1. IT IS REBELLION AGAINST GOD THAT IS AS WITCHCRAFT
    Posted On: 05/30/08 12:33:50 PMAge 64, OH
    Dear friend, you say, "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." (KJV). Whatever other way the founding fathers may be characterized, they were manifestly rebels against a legally-constituted government of which they were citizens. Yes rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, but it is rebellion against God not man,that is this sin. What constitutes a legal government. The very British government you say they should have obeyed had "rebelled" against a former British government and so that were in power and not the former "legal government". So who do you say we should obey; the people that are in charge by the force of arms they possess. Daniel was NOT obeying the Persian government that overcame the government of Babylon by force of arms, but Daniel was obeying God. Lou
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  2. THEY WALKED WITH JESUS IN THE FURNACE
    Posted On: 05/29/08 09:46:36 AMAge 64, OH
    So by your own statement here you would have obeyed the Nazi government of Germany and turned in the rebel Jews who were not submitting to their death and the death of all their children. We as Christians are not to be faithful to governments but we are to be faithful to The Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel was not obedient to the King of Babylon but was obedient to God and was a friend of the king and looked out for the good of the king. But even though Daniel was a loyal friend to the king he asked to be able to disobey the kings diet and his three friends would not bow to the gold statue that he had made. When we follow their example we will be thrown into the furnace as they were. But in the furnace we will walk and talk with The Lord Jesus as they did. Lou
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Dr. MacArthur needs to reread our history
Posted On: 05/24/08 08:07:39 PM Age 43, FL
I suggest Dr. MacArthur reread his American history, from the original sources, not the edited sources of today. Dr. MacArthur is intelligent and I agree with him on many Christian issues, I think he is wrong to say the founding of the US was a sin.
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Defense?
Posted On: 05/23/08 01:09:26 PM Age 44, SC
So, defense is the reason for the Revolution? Throwing snowballs with rocks in them at soldiers, throwing tea in the harbor, numerous times of using tar and feathers on British officials do not seem to be measures of defense but really means of antagonizing. Both sides (Britain and the colonists) botched up this relationship. The Crown did help in the French and Indian War and were attempting to come up with a solution to the Indian conflict in the Ohio Valley, should they not expect to be able to tax for those measures of defense? Also, the taxes that were put in place on the colonists were much smaller than an actual Englishman living in England. The colonists wanted to have their rights as Englishman and the protection from the Crown without any taxes. Maybe a better way to say it would be all the privildges and none of the responsiblities.
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  1. Yes, defense
    Posted On: 05/24/08 10:34:00 AMAge 17, VA
    It doesn't matter if the crown was trying to solve the "Indian" conflicts. The colonists probably could have handled those themselves. The main issue is the phrase, "taxation without representation." George III would not listen to the real grievances of the colonists, what they were really worried about, so they revolted and overthrew the tyrannical British government. It is about who started it. The passage about turning the other cheek is nice, but we are not called to be pushovers! We are called to be warriors for Christ, and George III was denying rights to the colonists that were assumed by those living in Britain, including freedom of religion. The official state church at that time was completely messing up the gospel, and punishing anyone who tried to set the church straight. The Revolution was completely justified.
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    1. Defense
      Posted On: 05/25/08 08:17:27 PMAge 44, SC
      So, Daniel and his three friends should have led a revolt in Babylon, the 12 disciples should have led a revolt against Herod and Pilate, Paul and the Apostles should have led a revolt against the emperor of Rome? In all of these cases their "freedom of religion" was challenged. The colonists had experienced freedom of religion. We can see that the 13 colonies had a diverse number of denominations. You are correct with the idea of "no taxation without representation" and in fact Great Britain offered that at one time and the colonists said no.
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      1. BOTH BABYLON AND PERSIA GOT THEIR KINGDOMS BY FORCE
        Posted On: 05/30/08 12:45:49 PMAge 64, OH
        We are not to do anything on our own. For our lives are not our own by belong to the One who shed His blood for us, The Lord Jesus Christ. Daniel did what the Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus told him to do. Daniel 1st stood against eating the unclean food of the king of Babylon. He did this is a respectful way. Later the three stood against the king who demanded they bow to an idol that the king thought he saw in his vision from God. When Daniel was older he did not respect the grandson who had become king and read the handwriting on the wall from God. Later that night the Persians rebelled against the Babylon government and Daniel was honored by these Persian "rebels", and God had Daniel serve the Persians. Daniel served God, not men. Lou
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