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Intelligent Design and Science
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FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE
Posted On: 05/08/08 01:26:41 AM Age 64, OH
Are we covered with the blood of Jesus. Do people covered with the blood still die a physical death. The blood covers our sin so we can be reconciled with Jesus. Our spirits are then made perfect and we are saved in the spirit. But our souls are not yet saved but are being saved by the fellowship of His sufferings. But the corruptible can not inherit the kingdom of God can it. So our bodies are beyond salvation and will never be saved. Our flesh is beyond salvation. The coming of Jesus into our spirit saves our spirit but the coming of Jesus to reveal Himself to the world will save us from our flesh. We will get new bodies not of flesh. Adam had a body of flesh and could not enter into eternal life with his flesh. The final victory is not won yet but it is defeated by the return of Jesus and we are given new bodies. Jesus learned obedience by suffering and do we think we will learn obedience without suffering. It is the fellowship of His sufferings that brings me to know Him more and more. True disciples of The Lord Jesus were never told they would not suffer. Peter was constantly saying he would die for Jesus and when Jesus saw Peter in John 21 He told Peter that he would be able to do what he always desired to do; which was to die for Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Was this true then. Is it true now. Was it true for all time. The Word of God is eternal and true forever into the future and into the past. Adam had a body of flesh and blood and could not inherit eternal life in the flesh. When Enoch was taken up he was given a new body to be able to enter heaven. If Adam had eternal life why did God put the tree of life in the garden. May the mercy and grace of the Lord be with you. Lou
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IN THE 1ST DAY THE EARTH WAS FORMLESS AND DID NOT ROTATE
Posted On: 05/03/08 06:42:48 PM Age 64, OH
Mark, you say,"The reason none of your church leaders could answer your questions is because they had likely abandoned God's word as the framework for both knowledge and truth". Ist of all I would not want to talk like this about men I have not even met. Many of these men loved Jesus Christ and studied the scriptures their whole life. Most of these men are now gone to be with the Lord Jesus. 2nd the Holy Scriptures are NOT the foundation or the framework of knowledge and truth. The Lord Jesus Christ is the foundation, the framework, and is Himself the Truth. The Bible is THE Book and no other book compares to it. But The Author of the Book is far above the Book itself. It is written in the Book itself that Jesus Christ is THE WORD OF GOD. Mark, you say the scriptures are your foundation but then say when the word "yom" is used with a number it means an earth day without giving any support from scripture for this. Was this account of the creation true in all the solar system or just on the earth. All the other planets have a different time of rotation than earth does, including Mercury on which a day is two years long( mercury years). On Mercury it takes 88 days for mercury to orbit the sun and it takes 59 earth days for mercury to rotate once on its axis. But a solar day on Mercury (the time from sunup to sunup) is two Mercury years or 176 earth days. Let us look at the scriptures and see if they can shed light by the mercy of the Lord Jesus. 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the EARTH was FORMLESS and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, - 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. -- 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. -- We can see the scriptures say the EARTH was FORMLESS so it had no form or shape yet. Also there was no light from the sun yet. The earth was just a mass of matter and had no rotation and the day could not be timed by the light of the sun. The scriptures DO NOT imply in any way this day was one rotation of the earth but seem to say different in very plain language to me. Also notice that the day was not a morning and a evening but a evening and then a morning. There was no light in the solar system but there was darkness and then God said let there be light. And God called the LIGHT the DAY. The day could not be timed by the coming up and going down of the light of the sun because there was NO LIGHT from the sun until the END. The 1st day is simply the coming of the light as God has said. Even if one would insist that tradition was still correct instead of what God says; there is the problem that from the evening to the morning on this earth today is 12 hours not 24. From evening to morning is but one half of a calender day. As I have stated before, look at the 7th day and you will see that is has no end. The 6th day has a morning which is the end of the 6th day and the start of the 7th day. But there is other evening or morning given to the 7th day. We can not ASSUME that the 7th day had an end just because it is convenient to support our doctrine. The scriptures DO NOT give the 7th day an end. God entered His rest in this 7th day. Does not God say that He would not allow the disobedient to enter His rest in the desert. God is still in His rest is He not. The scriptures support that the 7th day has not ended for God's rest has not ended and we are still in this 7th day. The earth has made countless rotations during this 7th day of God's rest. Please read my other posts on this same subject and my replies in this article. Grace and peace to you dear brother. Lou
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responce to "Problems with long-day theory"
Posted On: 05/02/08 03:08:00 PM Age 21, OH
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." notice God said, when YOU eat of it, YOU will die. did all animals eat of the tree? no. are animals still mortal? yes. perhaps then we might consider the difference between spiritual death and physical death. Jesus's death on the cross sanctified the death cause by adam and eve eating the fruit, but then why do Christians still die physicals deaths like everyone else? if sin is the cause of physical death, then why are we mortal even after we are covered by the blood of Christ? ~~your brother isaac~~
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  1. Because we live in a fallen world
    Posted On: 05/03/08 09:31:02 PMAge 42, NM
    Isaac, thanks for your response. Romans 8 18-20 speaks of the whole earth groaning under the weight of the curse. The curse of sin came upon the whole world, not just Adam's line. That is probably because the whole world was uniquely designed for man to thrive in. When Adam and Eve sinned, they began the death process and were refused access to the Tree of Life. Furthermore God killed an animal in their place and made skins to cover them. The death of this animal would have been very profound and meaningful to them, showing them the price of their sin. They had named this animal and now it died "in their place" providing a termporary covering for their sin until the true Lamb of God would provide an eternal cleansing. Adam still lived several hundred years, but they too offered sacrifices for sin thereafter. We know this because Able offered an acceptable sacrifice while Cain offered an unacceptable sacrifice. How did they know what was proper? Because God showed them by killing an animal. Adam and Eve passed that truth to their offspring. Able received it and Cain did not. Death will cease when we put on immortality and not before then. Heaven will be absent sin and therefore absent death, sickness, pain and suffering. But for now we are still in this world which is under the curse.
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    1. Adam's sin brought Spiritual death only
      Posted On: 05/04/08 08:16:44 AMAge 47, MO
      If Adam's sin brought physical death upon the whole earth, explain to me how Enoch went from life to life. Was he without sin? Email me at jchristco@aol.com and I will give my explanation, as well as if Eve had kids prior to Cain. Bless God, John
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      1. About Enoch
        Posted On: 05/04/08 04:31:02 PMAge 42, NM
        I wonder how many people have ever lived in our world. You mention Enoch never having died. I would add Elijah to your list, but you'd be hard pressed to find a third. So out of all these billions of people its been pretty conclusive - Physical death comes to all people. Revelation tells us that in the Last Days there will be two witnesses who will die and be raised to life. Could Elijah and Enoch be the two witnesses? Perhaps. But even if not, we also know that Paul says that "we who are alive and remain will be caught with Him in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." And these who will be caught up with the Lord, are sinners, yet escape death. Your argument doesn't work anyway, for if sin brings only spiritual death to all men, the same question can be asked about Enoch and Elijah. Were they perfect? Did they not sin? Of course they did. So how can they not be "spiritually" dead? Either way its still the substitutionary atonement of Christ that restores, and both have problems because Elijah and Enoch both lived and left the world prior to the cross. But problem is not on one view more than another. Kevin. PS - I did already email you as noted in another post. My email is assemblyofgod@plateuatel.net
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        1. THE BLOOD IS THE REMEDY FOR SIN
          Posted On: 05/06/08 10:50:24 AMAge 64, OH
          It is very simple. What brought about death; there is no argument there, for sin brought about death. What is the remedy for this death that sin brought about. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. We agree there also. So sin brought about death and the blood brought about life. The blood conquered death. But when we humble ourselves before God and are covered with the blood and His Holy Spirit comes to live in us then we have life. We agree on that. We do not die a spiritual death again for we are promised eternal life. But the remedy of the blood does not stop physical death does it. So the problem of sin did NOT bring about physical death or the blood would have stopped physical death. For the blood was the remedy for sin. The blood of Jesus cancels sin and we are pardoned as though we had never sinned. But even the blood does not stop physical death, but we still die. But the blood is the remedy for sin and it does gives us eternal spiritual life. It is the fact that the blood does not remedy physical death is PROOF that sin did not bring physical death for the blood is the remedy for sin and all the consequences of sin. What kind of doctor would give you a remedy for the flu and you would still die. You would say he was not a good doctor. But Jesus is the Great Physician and His remedies work. His remedy for sin stops all the penalties of sin. So the blood is the remedy for spiritual death only and this tells us that the penalty of sin was spiritual death only. Physical death was the consequence of being born a man and we do not have eternal life without the Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ. When man sinned he was separated from the Spirit of God and so died and lost eternal life. But he still lived 930 years in the physical only. The only way for Adam to have life was to be reconciled with the Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ. Lou
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          1. The Blood does give victory over physical death
            Posted On: 05/06/08 05:16:24 PMAge 42, NM
            Where O' death is thy sting? Where O' grave is thy victory? Praise be to God who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. What is the victory over? Death! Is it victory over physical death or spiritual death? Obviously physical because the context speaks of the grave. So yes the blood of Jesus Christ gives us victory over physical death. Without it the grave would hold, but those not covered by the blood will face both the first death and the second. Physical death would never have taken place apart from sin. The restoration is in relation to Christ. Once our days are finished we will put off the immortality that we gained because of the fall, and put on immortality that we gained through Christ. I see your point, but disagree. As I'm sure you see my point, but disagree. So why does it matter, since eternity for either of us is not in question? Well, why it matters for me is because we are called to give answers to those who ask us for why we have hope. If we present a God who created us to endure pain, suffering, sickness and death, that's not conducive to drawing people to Christ who are angry and/or hurt by all the suffering in the world. If I were in their shoes I'd wonder why i should trust a God who created me to suffer. You'd have a hard time bringing me to Christ with that message, and I've heard those, enslaved to sin, say that very thing. But to present a God who truly created all things good, we being the ones who brought sickness, pain and death into the world through our sin (both in the bloodline of Adam and by personal rebellious choice). And then presenting a God who rectified that through the cross. To me its truly Good News, that we can repent of sin, turn to God by faith in Jesus Christ, and everything that was lost at the fall is restored. We have hope. Yes we live in a fallen world. And yes we will still die a physical death, because we live in a fallen world. But when we get to heaven we will be in a place free of all sin and therefore free of all pain. Again - we praise God together for his goodness and for saving our slimey little souls, for our works of righteousness could not save, but the blood of Jesus is sufficient. We give God glory, both of us, even though we disagree. God Bless you brother. Kevin.
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            1. CAN FLESH AND BLOOD INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN
              Posted On: 05/09/08 06:29:56 AMAge 64, OH
              Kevin,please see my reply at top of page titled FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Lou
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            2. Suffering IS essential!!
              Posted On: 05/07/08 09:27:00 AMAge 47, MO
              Kevin: The sting in death is not physical, the sting is Spiritual. Physical death is just a part of life that springs us from the temperal to the eternal. The sting is eternal damnation apart from Christ. Physical life is only a vapor of existence meant to bring glory to God. Suffering is very important to a Christian life because only thru suffering can we know the depth of our depravity and the height of Christ's love. Kevin; suffering is essential and sorely missing in American Christian theology. The suffering is why the early church grew, the Iraqi church, the Afghan church, the Chinese church, etc. The American Church hasn't experienced any growth in decades. John
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        2. Kevin
          Posted On: 05/06/08 08:31:10 AMAge 47, MO
          My article I will send to you will argue that sin is the choice to be like God knowing what IS good and what IS evil. (Gen 3:22...lest he PUT out his hand and TAKE from the tree of life.) Said another way, it is to DECIDE. We humans can't decide what is good or what is evil because we are NOT God. Yet, we attempt this by our reasoning daily. So, Enoch walked with God (Gen 5:24), then he was not, for God took him. If Enoch walked with God, as Adam walked with God, he was not Spiritually dead. As always, to walk in the flesh is death, to walk in the Spirit is life. The Christian life has NOTHING to do with a "relationship", the Christian life is DEATH to the old man and rebirth to the SPIRIT. Amen? John
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Problems with long-day theory
Posted On: 05/01/08 08:28:48 AM Age 42, NM
Lou, I enjoy reading your posts and can usually recognize them before reading your name at the end. The same was true as I read this one. But there are problems with the long-day theory of Genesis 1. The scriptures clearly declare that sin's entrance into the world brought the curse of death into the world. The long-day theory supposes that death existed for millions of years, before Adam existed or sinned. The problem here is that once we accept the long-day theory and death before sin, we now present a tainted God who created a world filled with death and called it good. The only way (in my mind) to avoid this problem is to hold to a normal 24 hour day in Genesis. It fits the context and it fits the doctrine of salvation in that Jesus' death on the cross satisfied the wrath of God against sin and thereby is the only remedy for death. But if death existed before sin, then Jesus' crucifixion does nothing to conquer death. Please correct me, if there is another way to reconcile this.
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  1. THE ANIMALS ARE NEVER MENTIONED IN THE CURSE
    Posted On: 05/03/08 10:53:07 AMAge 64, OH
    We have seen how the plants showed us that Jesus had to die from the beginning. Not only that, but the plants sacrificed themselves by giving their fruit to man so that man could have life. There was death from the beginning so that life could take place. The plants gave up their life for animals to have life. Animals ate plants from the beginning as God said. But this happened so that the plants could have life. Animals breath out CO2 and the plants breath CO2 in. Animals leave manure which the plants need to live. Earthworms leave more manure in a healthy field than the farmer can ever put on himself. The animals did not eat of the tree and so did not come under the curse. Read the curse it is to the Devil, the Woman, and to the Man. The plants and animals are NOT included. Animals have always died from the beginning. Death MUST take place for life to take place. This is true now, and was true then. It is also a illustration that physical life is not eternal but spiritual life is eternal. The animals died but their offspring lived on. Jesus died and His offspring can live forever. Abraham had both physical children and spiritual children. Only the spiritual children have eternal life. The physical children of Abraham still die but his spiritual children can live forever. God has left us billions of fossils of these dead animals to show us the Truth. The fossil record that was written by The Lord Jesus is the same as the record in Genesis 1. Ist there was plants, 2nd sea creatures, 3rd birds, 4th land animals, 5th man. This is the same as the fossil record. The fossil record which there can be no doubt who wrote; proves who wrote genesis which the Author can be doubted by men. The chance of getting these five forms of life in the correct order is 5! or 1x2x3x4x5= 120. That is one chance in 120. But there are 12 events in Genesis that are the same as the creation shows. 12! = 479,001,600. The Creator proves His Holy Scriptures to those who will humble themselves and study His creation. The Lord Jesus has shown us in the fossil record that He wrote that it took the earth a long time to bring forth the animals as God has said in Genesis; "Let the land produce living creatures". This is a illustration that only the Lord Jesus Christ can bring forth spiritual life in an instant when He gives us His Holy Spirit. We need not fear the first death, or physical death, but fear only the second death which is forever. The Plants die but live on in their seeds. The animals die but live on in their offspring. There comes a time when EVERY MAN MUST DIE. But we need not fear for if we die in Christ then He gives His Holy Spirit to live in our hearts and we then live forever. Grace, mercy and peace to all that are His. Lou
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  2. FROM THE BEGINNING THE PLANTS DECLARED THAT JESUS WOULD DIE FOR US
    Posted On: 05/03/08 10:09:17 AMAge 64, OH
    Thank you so much for your very kind and humble reply. My youngest son qualified for the National Cross Country Championships in Albuquerue, NM in 2004 but he would not go because he said it would cost too much money for me. I really wanted him to go but he is so careful with my money. I made reservations and he made me cancel them. I have been through NM on a road trip and it is beautiful. You are correct that sin brought death to man, but what kind of death. We must read the Holy Scriptures with great care and especially with the help of the Holy Spirit. God said, "when you eat of it you will surely die." We know Eve and then Adam both ate of the tree but Adam did not die a physical death when he ate of the tree but lived another 930 years. But Jesus had been leaving Jerusalem(Salem, The city of The great King) and had been walking down to the garden to walk with Adam every day. Adam had spiritual communion with God and that is necessary for eternal life for Jesus is The Life. Eating fruit brought physical life but communion with Jesus brought spiritual life, the same as it does now. But the day Adam ate of the tree he hid from Jesus and so was spiritually dead. Adam and Eve died a spiritual death the same day they ate of the tree. But the animals did not eat of the tree and so God would not punish the innocent alone with the guilty. The plants could not eat of the tree. The creation declared the glory of God; and the plants were an illustration that Jesus would die for us and that we must die with Him to have eternal life. The earth brought forth the plants and they brought forth seed after their kind. So what "kind" of plants do we have now; the same "kind" there was then. Plants brought forth seed and then the seed had to die or be put in the earth for it to bring forth life. Jesus said, John 12:24 " unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." The words of Jesus are true now, in the future and during the creation. There was no time that this was NOT true. It was His plan from the beginning to die for us to show us that He loves us and save us from our sins. Jesus did not change His plans after Eve sinned but this was His plan from the beginning as Paul says in Eph 1. So the plants were to declare His glory from the beginning, which was the fact that He would die and be cast into the ground to bring forth many brothers. By the way, we have the same "kind" of plants now as then. Have you ever seen a sunflower look to the sun in the morning and follow it across the sky and look to the sun in the evening. What do plants need to have life, the sun of course. Have you ever watched seed being put into the ground and then it is several weeks until it comes up. But it is months before the seed of that plant is ready to plant or eat. This does not happen in a earth day. I will post another reply on the animals. Lou
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    1. The whole earth has been subjected to the curse of God
      Posted On: 05/03/08 08:32:52 PMAge 42, NM
      Hello Lou. Thanks for both of your replies. This is insightful and interesting to me. It seems to me that you are saying that the curse of God came upon man who sinned in the garden, but not upon the plants and animals. First, I would submit that plant death is not in the same category as animal or human death. There is a difference in regard to pain and suffering, knowledge, mental awareness, etc. That is why there is no significant difference in the plants that were then and are now. Regarding animals however, you said in your post that the animals were plant eaters, which agrees with Genesis 1. But the fossil record shows that animals such as some dinosaurs were carnivorous, prior to the arrival of man. Today we see that many are carnivorous. What precipitated that change? I believe the change came because the curse of sin and death came upon all of creation. Romans 8:19-20 says, "For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, everything on earth was subjected to God's curse." (This is the NLT, and I have not studied out its accuracy in this text.) But it seems to suggest that the curse was not limited to man, but extended to the whole of creation. If this is true, then we have a possible answer as to why some animals are now carnivorous. The Bible does not mention death of any kind prior to the sin of A&E. They saw death immediately when God killed an animal and made skins from the it for their clothing. This wasn't necessary just to cover their nakedness, since they already covered themselves with leaves. Rather it was to "cover" their sin. Adam and Eve witnessed the first death, due to their sin, and realized that the animal (perhaps a lamb) died in their place and pointed to the future Lamb of God who would be slain as a substitutionary atonement for all sin. Their sin brought death immediately, but in God's mercy, an animal took their place. This is the same picture that is present in the sacrificial lamb in the law of Moses. The sin was ascribed to the lamb and "covered" although not "removed" until the true Lamb of God. As far as the fossil record goes and the order: Creation scientist (YEC's) would expect the same order in the case of the worldwide flood of Noah. When the Tsunami hit Indonesia and Sri Lanka you see the same order of death, with the mammals and man (the ones who had time) heading for the high ground when they saw the water rising. I don't see the fossil record alluding to millions of years of death and disease before man. Rather its a testimony to the truth of the Biblical flood. In any case, Lou, we may not see eye to eye on this, but I appreciate reading many of your posts. I hope I've been as respectful as I should be. May God be praised as we seek him. Kevin.
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      1. THE FRUSTRATION THE CREATION WAS SUBJECTED TO WAS BY THE WILL OF GOD
        Posted On: 05/03/08 11:49:42 PMAge 64, OH
        Kevin; I think this is a more accurate translation of Romans 8:18-20 NIV 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.-- It does not say that the creation is under a curse but it is subjected to frustration of decay. But man is not even mentioned as the cause of this frustration but it is by the will of God. IT WAS NOT GOD'S WILL THAT MAN SIN. So it was not man's sin that put the creation under this frustration.This is not talking about the curse that man put himself under by his sin but the decay that is upon the whole universe by the will of God. The stars are born and then die. Some of the stars have been around since the beginning and some of the larger stars only last a much shorter time and then explode in a supernova. The whole creation has this decay from the beginning. We can read the curse Adam and Eve brought upon man. It is written down in the scriptures in Genesis 3:14-19 and we know it does not say anything about the animals or the plants or stars. The curse is to those who were disobedient which was Satan, Eve, and Adam. Your other point that an animal was sacrificed for Adam: if this was for his physical life then it did not work for Adam still died did he not. The law does not save us and this law did not save Adam. The law of sacrifice was for the same purpose of all laws of God. It was to protect us and keep us from more sin. It was Adams babysitter since he was now dead in the spirit and had no spiritual communion with God. It was to show Adam that something innocent had to die for his sin and make him sorrowful for his sin. Lou
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        1. Yes - that's a better translation
          Posted On: 05/04/08 04:15:43 PMAge 42, NM
          Lou, I agree that you quoted from a better translation (not that my agreement means anything as I'm certainly not a scholar), but the question still arises: When did this frustration begin? I know that it is God's will, but does that mean God created it that way before the fall? ("God is not willing that any should perish" but many will anyway). Are you saying that the decay was always there upon the earth even before sin? What is the basis for this belief? Romans 8:20 says that creation was subjected to futility (frustration), not willingly, but because God subjected it. V21 says that "The creation itself will "ALSO" be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God's children." In other words both creation and man suffer and glorious freedom will come to both. Your argument seems to contradict itself. On the one hand it is argued that God created the earth, plants and animals already in a state of decay, yet that is a good thing because the death of plants and animals brings life to each other. And yet here it tells us that the creations "suffers", which to me seems like a negative and bad thing. But it must not be a bad thing for creation to suffer because God looked upon all creation in Genesis 1 and said it is good. And after the sixth he said "It is very good." Is God's view of good different than mine and Pauls? If God created the earth in a state of decay and it "suffers" then God created it in suffering, and yet called it good. I don't get that argument, maybe I'm too simple. But it seems to be a stretch of the passage to try to get OE time frames to fit the Bible. It's much more natural to see that God created everything in perfect order, capable of lasting forever. But that when sin entered the world the curse came upon all creation. In that sense God can call his creation good; indeed very good. And still the creation can now, because of sin, be suffering due to decay that started at the fall of man (2nd Law of Thermodynamics / Entropy). All of which will be restored when the "sons of God" are revealed and return with Christ to reign with him. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, and I'm okay with that. We can be brothers in Christ without coming to agreement on every issue. Based on many posts I've read of yours, I'm convinced that you are indeed in Christ, set free from bondage to sin, and seeking to live a holy life that brings glory to God. Grace and peace you through our Lord Jesus Christ. Kevin.
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          1. JESUS IS THE ONE AND ONLY ETERNAL ONE
            Posted On: 05/06/08 08:46:29 AMAge 64, OH
            Kevin; This is a very good discussion. You say, "But it seems to be a stretch of the passage to try to get OE time frames to fit the Bible. It's much more natural to see that God created everything in perfect order, capable of lasting forever".- 1st; Can anything that changes last forever. God never changes and that may make Him eternal in itself. Man used to look at the universe with his naked eye and many thought it was eternal. But when Isaac Newton invented the reflecting telescope men could see much more and soon learned that the universe was in a state of constant change. This led to the discovery of the "Big bang" which atheists ridiculed at first because they were aware that if the universe had a beginning then it had to have a beginner. My point here is that change shows that something is NOT eternal. We know that from the very beginning the universe had a beginning and so could not be eternal. Also anything that has a beginning it not eternal and therefore has a end. The Book says it had a beginning form the very start BEFORE the fall of man. So from the very beginning it had to have an end. Of course here I am talking only of the physical and NOT the spiritual. 2nd - God has never failed or ever been surprised. I have heard many preachers preach as though Adam sinned and so God went to plan B and then decided to come and die for us. But we are told in the scriptures that this was His UNCHANGING plan to become a Man and shed His blood to save us. And he did it this way just because he wanted to do it that way. Jesus wanted us to know that He loved us and in His infinite wisdom he could see this was the very best way. Therefore; Jesus could see from the very beginning that Adam and Eve would sin and the creation was created to declare the glory of God and to reveal His glory to man and to make a place for man. 3rd - God did not create a universe that obeyed certain laws and then when man fell the laws were all changed to cause the universe to change and decay. The laws of God never change. We can look out into the universe and see galaxies that are 14 billion light years away. We can see that they obey the same laws in that far away part of the universe that we do here. We are not only looking far away in distance but far away in time and it is as we can look back into time and see that the universe obeyed the same laws of God then as it does now. But these laws are not spiritual laws but physical laws. The physical laws are but a sign of the spiritual laws. God Himself has told us that the physical is NOT eternal for he says it has a beginning. But the spiritual is not the physical and when God breathed the breath of life or the spirit into us we then were eternal. But we can have eternal life or eternal death. We have eternal life if we humble ourselves before God and confess our sin and He then decides to have His Holy Spirit come and live in us forever. His Spirit IS LIFE. If we decide to go our own way then we will have eternal death. There is One and Only One Eternal Life and that is The Lord Jesus Christ Almighty. No one or nothing else is eternal but Him. We can only have eternal life by His Spirit living in us. The creation is NOT the Creator. The Creator is eternal but the creation is not. - lounewton1347@yahoo.com - May the Mercy and Grace of the Lord be with you. Lou
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            1. Tree of Life?
              Posted On: 05/06/08 05:24:57 PMAge 42, NM
              Adam would not have had to die physically, for he had the tree of life to partake of. Once he rebelled against God, he was forced to leave the garden and could not eat of the tree of life an longer. Yes I know that God's plan of salvation was not plan B, and would never suggest such a thing. He plan was to redeem us from before the foundations of the earth. Check out www.answersingenesis.com for a scientific response to why we see distant starlight.
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              1. AFTER THE FALL THE TREE OF LIFE WOULD HAVE BROUGHT DEATH
                Posted On: 05/08/08 02:12:33 AMAge 64, OH
                Ken Ham argues for the very things he argues against in order to try and shore up the YEC. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and the methods that the YEC use are not valid to all but themselves. The Creation museum actually tells that men and dinosaurs walked together. This is against all evidence and all scientist (except the ones in this little group) agree that there is overwhelming evidence that Dinosaurs were not on earth with man. Whatever the time frame the Dinos were long before man. Many of these scientists are Christians who disagree with Ham.- I did not think you did believe in plan B but just wanted to remind you of that fact.- If Adam had eternal life why put the tree of life in the garden. There would be no need for it if Adam did not sin, if he had eternal life already; and if Adam did sin then the tree of life would cause Adam to be lost from God forever (which is death is it not). The tree of life was put in the garden for Adam to choose. He could choose to decide right from wrong (the tree of knowledge of good and evil); or he could choose life by eating of the tree of life. If Adam had chosen the tree of life he would have had eternal life with God. But Adam chose the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam already knew good because he knew God. But when he ate of the tree he came to know evil for he did evil to eat of the tree. So now God had to remove Adam from the tree of life because if he ate of it he would be lost forever. When Adam ate of the tree of knowledge he still could not tell good from evil but just came to know both good and evil. Can we tell good from evil yet today. No we can not, not even with the Bible. We need the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and tell us good from evil. The tree of life would only bring eternal life to Adam if he had communion with God in the spirit, because eternal life is impossible without God. So the tree would not bring spiritual life (for Adam already had that with the spirit God had breathed into him); but the tree would bring eternal physical life or a new body. Once Adam sinned and lost the Holy Spirit then he could not have eternal life but would be lost forever if he ate of the tree of life. Lou
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              2. Seperation from God is the sting
                Posted On: 05/07/08 09:43:33 AMAge 47, MO
                Kevin: You said in an earlier post that sin brought physical death and without sin, Adam would have lived forever. If this is the case, then what was the purpose of the tree of eternal life? No friend, sin brought Spiritual death, which is seperation from God. The physical, natural, the creation, WAS and always is meant to be temperal. The creation is winding down and was created to do so. Jesus never sinned and still died, so sin did not cause death. Sin seperates us from God- seperation is the STING of death. Amen? John
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Many ID Proponents Are Long Day Christians Also
Posted On: 04/30/08 07:33:47 PM Age 40, NH
Many of those in the ID movement are long day (non-24 literal hour day) creationists let us not forget. Although thoroughly and completely compatible with Scripture in the original languages we presently know (the OT may have been and probably was originally written in language(s) other than Hebrew), this is a position that still puts most ID proponents outside of some theologians and scientists who are creationists. ID is a varied and scientific theory from the scientific evidence, not Genesis which makes no claim as a scientific handbook. Either 6 literal days or not, God created each after its kind. Grace and Peace, Jim
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ID vs Biblical Creation
Posted On: 04/30/08 06:13:09 PM Age 55, IL
Don't get too enamored with the ID movement per se. Most of the notables in the ID movement do NOT affirm Genesis. Michael Behe, for example, is a theist (and a Roman Catholic), but has succumbed to the 'billions of years' fantasies of the evolutionary geologists and astronomers. I love Behe's books . . . up to a point. Remember that this battle is spiritual. Only with God's grace will light shine and sinners be converted. Those that are merely 'theists' are also deniers of the Lord Jesus Christ AND HIS WORDS. Jesus affirmed the Genesis account (Mark 10:6-9) and condemns those who deny His words (Mark 8:38). I love much of the work done by the ID camp. But they fall woefully short. AnswersInGenesis.org and icr.org represent two organizations who do better.
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  1. WAHT IS A DAY
    Posted On: 04/30/08 06:39:35 PMAge 64, OH
    Jesus said not one jot or tittle will pass away of the Scriptures. The universe was created in six literal days. But what is a literal "day" according to God Almighty and NOT men. Gen 3:8 - the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the DAY,- Here we can see that God uses the word DAY not to mean 24 hours but the cool time of the light and not the darkness of night. God came to them walking in the cool time of the DAYLIGHT and not at night. Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said,... ; his DAYS will be a hundred and twenty years." - Here we can see that God uses the word DAY not talking about a 24 hour day but saying mans DAYS ( TIME) will be 120 years. Genesis 7:12 And rain fell on the earth forty DAYS and forty NIGHTS. - Here God uses the word DAY to mean 12 hours or the light part of the 24 hour period. Genesis 7:24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty DAYS. - Here God uses the word DAY to mean a 24 hour period. Genesis 8:22 "As long as the earth endures, .. DAY and night will never cease." - Here God uses the word DAY to mean the LIGHT of day. God is saying the light will always come in the morning. Genesis 32:32 Therefore to this DAY the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, - here God uses the word DAY the same as the word TIME. The word does not refer to 24 hours but it refers to a the present TIME period. If one will read the whole book of Genesis they will find God uses the word DAY many different ways just as we do TODAY. Not meaning this 24 hour period but the period of TIME in which we now live. HOW DOES GOD USE THE WORD DAY IN GENESIS: 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the LIGHT "DAY," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.- God called the LIGHT day. God is telling us that the light is called DAY. The 1st DAY is the 1st coming of LIGHT. God then goes on to tell us that there was evening (darkness) and morning (the coming of light) the 1st DAY. From evening to morning is not 24 hours but 12. I do not think God is even talking about time at all. He simply says that it was DARK and He made LIGHT for us. This coming of light was the 1st DAY. According to the tradition laid down by the pope, the Sun was created on the 4th day. Then if that is true, how could there be any 24 hour days at all before the 4th day, for the sun is used in this keeping of time, is it not. The question is; is God even speaking of time in Genesis 1. Does not the whole Bible tell us to take an eternal view of things and not look at the temporal or time. 2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.- If this is the advise of God to man then why would God start off his Scriptures with a account centered on the temporal or time. I would try to get you to think of this: God is not speaking of time at all. He is simply saying it was DARK and He made LIGHT for you. There was no air to breath and He made air for you. There was no dry land and He made land for you. You could not see the Sun and the Moon in the sky so God made them appear in your sight to be signs to you. There were no plants and God made plants for all other life to consume. There were no animals and God made the animals for us. There was no man and God made us to be with Him. Lou
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    1. On Semantics
      Posted On: 05/01/08 12:21:11 AMAge 19, TX
      Dear Sir, I hope you won't be offended by what I have to say. I say all this in Christian love as a fellow sister in Christ. I would like to recommend this article. It is on the semantics of the word "yom" and I found it extremely helpful. http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v5/i1/semantic.asp I understand what you're saying about "yom". In fact, I don't know of any YEC or OEC who would disagree that "yom" has many meanings. The key to knowing which meaning is meant then lies in the context of the passage and knowledge of the Hebrew language and usage. There are a couple words in Hebrew that mean "an indefinite period of time" or "a long time" etc... However, if God wanted to convey a "solar day" (i.e. 24 hr. day), "yom" is the only word to use in the Hebrew. Whenever "yom" is used with either a number, night, morning, or evening it always means a literal 24 hr. day. I've heard it said that if God wanted to say that the days of creation were literal 24 hour days He could not have said it better or more clearly than He did for He uses not just a number, but evening and morning as well to modify the noun "yom". The article above goes into great detail on this. The sun being created on the 4th day is a very interesting point and one that I just recently heard about. I'm not sure what the pope has to do with it but yes, the Bible does clearly say that the sun was created on the 4th day. The thing is that the sun is not necessary for there to be a day. There just has to be light to measure the rotation by. If you read part 4, number 4 it talks about this issue. I can't talk much on this because I just recently learned about it. I'm not sure I can quote because of copyright issues so I'd recommend reading it and seeing what they have to say. Concerning 2 Corinthians 4:18 - God is not saying that the temporal or time does not exist, but rather that there's more than just the temporal. He is not saying that we should totally disregard it but that we should focus more on the spiritual than the temporal. Genesis is written as a historical narrative, whether or not people believe it as such - that is the literary style of the book. If you claim that Genesis 1 is not meant to be taken literally, even though it is written as a historical narrative, do you do the same with the whole book, and indeed, with every historical narrative in the Bible?
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      1. IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH
        Posted On: 05/01/08 10:26:44 AMAge 64, OH
        You say,"the Bible does clearly say the sun was created on the 4th day". 1st Gen 1 only uses the word CREATE three times and it is NOT used in the 4th day at all. 2nd - 14 And God said, "LET THERE BE lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.-- 3RD - IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.- Is this scripture true. God said he created the heavens and the earth before the 1st day. Look up in the heavens and what do you see. The sun and the moon? Does it not seem here that God is saying he created the sun and the moon before the 1st day. 4th- Jesus says THE HEAVENS DECLARE HIS GLORY. So the 1st revelation of Jesus Christ is His creation, is it not. He even said it was good. I do not mean to say the creation was Jesus of course, but that the creation revealed His glory or His nature. God is light and we can not have life without God. So Jesus would not tell a lie in His creation and say there could be life without light. The earth produced the plants and that was the 3rd day, the coming of life to the earth. God says Let the earth produce plants. How could the earth produce plants without the light of the sun. We have the same kind of plants now, because God said let them bear seed after their kind. This can not happen without the sun as it is an example that we can mot have life without God who is light. 5th- The 1st day was the coming of light when Jesus said LET THERE BE LIGHT. Look at the perspective of the account. It is a God eye view taken from the earth. Where did the light come from. The same place physical light comes from now; the sun for God does not change.-- So that still leaves a question of what does God means on the 4th day. - Some translations say LET THEM APPEAR IN THE SKY instead of let them be. There was much dust in between the sun and the earth. When God said let there be light; the sun came on or nuclear fission started. This started the solar wind and it blew all the dust from the solar system and by the 4th day you could see the sun and the moon from the earth. The light had been coming through the dust as it does a cloud and the light allowed the earth to produce the plants as God said. The rest of the account of the 4th day was just a summary of what God had already done in the beginning when he created the heavens and the earth. For the stars are in the heavens are they not. -- The sun is the source of light in our solar system and there can not be life on this earth without the light of the sun. The sun is the center not the earth as the pope thought, just as God is the center of it all. The sun is almost all of the mass of the solar system just as God is ALL. The sun is our only source of light, just as God is our only source of light. There can not be life on any solar system that has more than one star, this is an illustration to us that there is only one God. Almost all stars in our galaxy are double, triple, or quad stars and very few are single stars.
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        1. Day One and Day Four
          Posted On: 05/01/08 12:56:11 PMAge 19, TX
          "IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH" - Yes indeed that Scripture is true. All Scripture is true. First of all, the Hebrew word for "heavens" is "shamayim". The word is translated as "heaven/s" but it's essential meaning is similar to our modern word "space". It doesn't mean the stars of heaven, the stars of heaven are the "host" of heaven and not heaven itself. It's refering to the space part of the space-mass-time universe. Also, "earth" refers to the matter part of the universe. As the second verse of Genesis explains - "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the earth. The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." God initially created space (the heavens) and the matter (the waters) which He later formed. Notice what you said "Look up in the heavens and what do you see. The sun and the moon?" The sun and moon are indeed IN the heavens, but they are not the heavens themselves. Let me quote Genesis 1:14-19 again "Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day." You see that it says that God placed the stars IN the heavens, the stars (as well as the sun and moon) are not the heavens themselves. You said "How could the earth produce plants without the light of the sun." Plants need light to grow and God made light on the first day. So there was light - thus the plants could grow. You also said "The 1st day was the coming of light when Jesus said LET THERE BE LIGHT. Look at the perspective of the account. It is a God eye view taken from the earth. Where did the light come from. The same place physical light comes from now; the sun for God does not change." God didn't say He created the sun on the first day of creation, merely that He created light. If He made the sun on day one He wouldn't have had to on day four. "Intrinsic light first, then generators of light later, is both the logical and Biblical order." God made light similar to the sun, but not the sun itself, to serve as the light source for the first 3 days.
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          1. LET THERE BE LIGHT
            Posted On: 05/01/08 06:07:25 PMAge 64, OH
            You say, God said let there be light, but it was not the sun, but this light was the source of light for the plants. WHAT WAS THAT SOURCE OF LIGHT AND WHERE IS IT NOW. Lou
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          2. THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH IS THE UNIVERSE
            Posted On: 05/01/08 06:04:28 PMAge 64, OH
            We not only have the scriptures but we have the creation itself and we also have been given a brain. We can look out into the heavens and see stars forming as we speak, we can also see stars dying. God had Isaac Newton invent the reflecting telescope so God could show us how He forms solar systems. We can see them form as we look at them. IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. Tell me what of the physical is there besides the heavens and the earth. Is that not all there is of the physical universe. The universe is not a stable unchanging place but it is changing constantly. Professing Christians who have not even studied the creation state that they know how God created the universe and they know almost nothing. The reason science has lost all respect for the church goes back to Galileo. He spent his whole life seeking God and studying His universe only to have a bunch of close minded and arrogant men who knew nothing tell Galileo how God did it. The church was wrong and they were so arrogant they even burnt men at the stake and put men in prison for disagreeing with the wrong position of the church. I will only remind you that I have sought The Lord Jesus Christ on this issue much longer than you have been alive. Your statement that The Earth refers to the matter part of the universe is quite ridiculous. Are you saying that the word earth refers to the sun and the moon and the stars and man. They and we are all made of matter. God created a universe that has three parts the physical, the soul, and the spirit. If you read with care you will see that God uses the word create three times and no more. The 1st act of creation is when God created the physical. This was the big bang and God created all matter and energy. This is the heavens and earth, or simply all that there is in this physical universe. The second act of creation was when God created animals with a soul or the sea creatures. God plainly says let the earth bring forth the animals on the earth. The 3rd act of creation was when God breathed the spirit into man. Man stand and tell God how he created the universe instead of having humility and bothering to ask Him how he did it. The apostles turned the world upside down and the whole earth respected Christianity. All of Europe was not all true Christians but almost all respected the religion. Why is the church now dying. Any thing not growing is dying. Men stand and tell God what is true and what is not. Then when someone seeks God and he shows that man some truth, the church stands back and ridicules the truth. Jesus has spoken to me and said, men are not ridiculing you , Lou, but they ridicule Me. I only have this question for you, did the Lord speak this to you, or is this interpretation from you or other men. Lou
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      2. THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE
        Posted On: 05/01/08 09:43:21 AMAge 64, OH
        Thank you for your kind reply. I would 1st ask you if you have sold everything you had and went and bought the whole field and then dug up that whole field to find the Pearl of Great Price, which is The Truth. I had questions about Genesis 1 when I was very young and asked many preachers who could not answer my questions. So after i gave my life to the Lord Jesus I asked Him about these questions instead of asking men. This quest has lasted for 33 years so far and Jesus has never repented of one thing he has ever spoken or shown me. I have read Genesis 1 thousands of times in every English translation, have you. I have prayed and asked Jesus what He means, have you. I then waited for the answer and did not decide for myself when i tired of waiting. Do you think the promises of the Lord Jesus are true for me also. I think His promises are true for everyone, don't you. I was fearful at 1st for what the Lord Told me was not tradition. But when I follow the Holy Spirit I find life and even miracles happen in my life. The only important thing is not how a person interprets Gen 1 but do they have Christ, don't you agree. The person who has The Lord Jesus Christ has everything there is to possess and lacks not one thing. Grace and mercy and peace to you. Lou
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        1. Pearl of Great Price
          Posted On: 05/01/08 08:37:06 PMAge 48, NC
          Lou, Please don't think me to be judgemental here. I do not doubt that your are a well reasoned christian. Your approach here seems to me to be eerily similar to that of Joseph Smith's. It's a highly subjective way of determining truth. It is possible to understand God's word plainly. The reason none of your church leaders could answer your questions is because they had likely abandoned God's word as the framework for both knowledge and truth. I find this to b true in most churches I've been in no matter how conservative. The problem we have is one of which history better compliments a pure gospel. The materialists history can only be billions of years of process. The Biblical history is one of supernatural creation wherein God speaks things into existence. God's word speaks to us plainly using not only yom but with specific numeric value. In doing so it sure seems to me to imply ordinary earth rotations which are essentially 24hrs. The gospel fits nicely into that history because it has no problem with the physical death of an animal (skin for clothing) to be death's entrance into the world. This was done, not to cover nakedness because they already had fig leaves, but rather as a symbol of atonement that sin requires death as payment. Animal death could only cover sin whereas Jesus' death washed it away. The death of an animal would have meant nothing where atonement is concerned if animals had been dying for millions of years. Every ancient culture on earth had some form of blood sacrifice. Why do you think that is? It was because God used it to demonstrate the penalty for sin way back in the beginning and that knowledge was passed down to all generations becoming corrupt in some cultures. How does millions of years of death prior to sin reconcile with death as God's penalty for sin. Only the biblical history makes sense and that is only about six thousand years. It's not a matter of how many meanings there are to yom. What matters is the context and if we can't be sure from the context then God spoke to us in a form that we could only know after materialists gave us billions of years of process as an explanation of the universe. That, sir, is man interpreting the universe through his own vain presuppositions. Biblical history or naturalistic history, which do we choose? Science based on evolutionary assumptions or science based on a Biblical framework? God's word must determine how we view the world around us. Sola Scriptura! Mark
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          1. TIME DOES NOT DILUTE THE POWER OF THE BLOOD
            Posted On: 05/06/08 10:18:37 AMAge 64, OH
            You say, whenever "yom" is used with a number it means a calender day. The problem here is that this is your rule and not supported by scripture. The blood of an animal has no power to cover sin. The fact that animals died form the beginning does not stop the lesson when a man watches something innocent shedding its blood for his sin and than changing his heart. The power is NOT in the blood of an animal but the power is in God's forgiveness when the man humbles himself before God and confesses his sin and repents. It is never the ritual that God is after but a changed heart. Jesus shed His blood 2000 years ago as far as time on this earth goes. But His blood has not lost any power to change the hearts of men who will humble themselves before God. Lou
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          2. JOSEPH SMITH WAS A ANTICHRIST
            Posted On: 05/03/08 11:52:53 AMAge 64, OH
            Mark, I will have to answer you in several parts. Ist Joesph Smith was not a truthful or sincere man but a liar and con man. He claimed to find gold plates from God but there were no gold plates. Why would God reveal gold plates to one man to translate and make him the only way to this truth. That is the same as Muhammad has done in Islam which makes him the only connection to Allah. Joseph Smith made himself the only way to god which is the same as Smith saying that he is The Way of that he is Jesus Christ. Smith was nothing but a liar and a fraud. Smith even had sex with underage girls and his wife found out so he had "the revelation" from god saying that men had to have sex with many women to have many children to be able to be god of their own planet. This revelation also said that any women or wife who would prevent this would be lost forever. Pretty convenient revelation from god for a man caught in the sexual abuse of children, don't you think. Joseph Smith said the Bible had been polluted and his "crap" ( Completely Ridiculous Antichrist Proclamation) that he called the Book of Mormon was nothing but a total lie meant to deceive people so he could have power over them. Lou
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            1. Joseph Smith
              Posted On: 05/04/08 04:36:29 PMAge 48, NC
              Lou, My point was that your quest for truth was identical to that of Joseph Smith's. Likewise, you encouraged your readers to also take that path just as Smith and all of the LDS members insist. It is a highly subjective manner in which to find truth. Truth is only found in God's revealed word. All things must be interpreted through that lense of truth. Without the revealed word of God there is no way for us to know truth, Ie Prov 1:7 etc. You never addressed my point. Mark
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              1. JESUS IS THE WAY
                Posted On: 05/06/08 10:26:31 AMAge 64, OH
                Joseph Smith did not follow Jesus Christ. But Smith simply went his own way for his selfish reasons. Are you saying that someone can trust Jesus Christ to save them and follow Him and then be lost. Is The Lord Jesus Not able to save or is the One who shed His blood for us not willing to save. Jesus is The Way. Smith denied Jesus was God. How is that in any way similar. Joseph Smith told his people to follow the book he wrote when he was gone. One could argue that way is similar to the way you are preaching; that is to follow The Book. Lou
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              2. JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD
                Posted On: 05/06/08 10:01:42 AMAge 64, OH
                Mark; you say truth is only found in the Bible. Then why does not the whole universe bow down and worship The Lord Jesus. The Revelation of the Lord Jesus is not in The holy Scriptures but we are only told about it. When Jesus returns and is REVEALED to the world everyone will bow and say He is Lord. This disproves that the Bible is the only revelation of truth does it not. Which was the greatest revelation of truth, The Lord Jesus Christ when he died on the cross and was resurrected to life again or the Bible. If The Holy Scriptures are the only revelation of truth then how did we get the Bible. Did not Jesus reveal Himself to holy men who then wrote down what Jesus had told them. The Bible is THE BOOK and it is the one and only book. No other Book compares to it. But the Book is from Jesus and is not Jesus. Jesus told the leaders of the church of Israel; 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.-- In the bible it is written that "Jesus is The Word of God". Lou
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    2. What is a day, 64 OH
      Posted On: 04/30/08 08:31:22 PMAge 48, NC
      Lou, I've read lots of your feedbacks and am usually impressed. I've seen you respond to the creation subject twice now. To me it is frightening to see what christian leaders are forced to accept as reasonable in order to reconcile an earth that is billions of years old with a pure gospel. The amount of conjecture is staggering. Your article here is evidence of that. No one argues that there are several uses of the word yom. In it's context of the days of creation it is found nowhere else in scripture to mean anything other than an ordinary day. The more I read, listen to and watch the more I'm convinced that the oec's are making a catastrophic error. Mark
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      1. ANY MAN WHO HAS CHRIST HAS EVERYTHING THERE IS TO POSSESS
        Posted On: 05/01/08 11:05:44 AMAge 64, OH
        Mark, you say, "I'm convinced that the oec's are making a catastrophic error". I do not think that you really mean this. Any man who has The Lord Jesus Christ has everything there is to possess and lacks not one thing as Paul says. So how could any man who trust Jesus Christ to save him be making a "CATASTROPHIC" error by how he interprets Gen 1. They more important issue here is that we do not look down upon anyone because of how they interpret Gen 1. We are called to think of others as above ourselves. I try to listen very carefully to what you and others say about this issue because the Lord might be trying to speak to me. You say no where in scripture is the word day mean anything but a ordinary day. There are about 10 ordinary meanings of the word day in our English dictionary. The scriptures use almost all of them. I have shown that in my post. Even when God uses the word day as a short period of time, it means 12 hours sometimes and 24 hours sometimes. Is a work day 24 hours. Does the light of day even refer to time. God defines the word day for us the 1st time he uses the word. "And God called the LIGHT day. It does not say God called the darkness and then the coming of light day. It is simply there was darkness and light came, the 1st day or the 1st coming of light. The 1st day is the 1st coming of light. Mark, I do not imply that you compromise your faith by believing in the YEC. I do not think you should assume that I have compromised my faith in interpreting Gen 1 the way I do. I assure you with all seriousness, knowing that I will answer for every thing that I say, that I did not interpret gen 1 to fit science. I had questions about Gen 1 and asked the Lord Jesus about these questions. Read my response to the young lady above if you would. It was after the Lord showed me the things that He did that I studied science and found that His creation agrees with His account of His creation. Jesus has left us two records of the creation, The Holy Scriptures and The creation itself. Both are from Him and are good. Jesus has left us so much evidence in His creation that it happened long ago that it is overwhelming to say the least. I would ask you this; why have we lost so many young Christians when they go to college. It was Christians who started the science that changed our world. Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Newton all believed the Bible and even said it was God Himself who showed them the things they discovered. Why not pray about this and ask Jesus to show you that you are wrong IF you are. He will show anyone the truth who really wants to know. Lou
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      2. Truth is true where ever its found
        Posted On: 05/01/08 09:01:39 AMAge 47, MO
        Mark: My concern with literal 6 day creationists is that they think Scripture trumps truth. Yet, Scripture can only be true if discerned by the Spirit. Therefore, we argue against God having wings, Jesus turning the wafer and the wine into His literal body and blood, and other Christian issues. Jesus IS The Word, The Truth, and is to be worshiped in Spirit and Truth. The truth is wherever truth is found so if science proves the earth revolves around the Sun, why should Christians fear? It always revolved around the Sun, it's just the shame of our ignorance that makes us defend a lie. There is no basis for a young earth other than "the Bible says." John
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        1. In the first day
          Posted On: 05/04/08 03:40:01 PMAge 48, NC
          Lou, your arguments concerning the rotation of other planets is astounding to me. It truely illustrates there are two extremely different starting points for each of our positions and therefore debate on the subject is futile. My point is that nowhere else in scripture is there a yom used in connection with a specific numeric value or evening/morning that yom means other than an ordinary day. The burden of proof here is yours and I've never even heard this statement addressed by an oec and I have read much. It's always avoided. Next you say the Bible does not provide us with the framework for knowledge and truth????? Huh? This is why I normally avoid these discussion. I find it easier to debate atheists, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Christians that bounce around all over the place in order to avoid acknowledging scripture as the correct starting point exhaust me. Your comments have done nothing but confirm to me the irrationality on the part of christians in defining the earth according to a naturalistic/evolutionary history. It's catastrophic error because the world is smart enough to understand the inconsistency. We are losing our children to the secular thoughtforms because we, as christians, haven't the guts to believe God's word above all else. The greatest error the church ever made in it's entire 2000 year history is when it began to consider it reasonable to educate our children in pagan government schools. OEC is the fruit of that. I really do not intend to write any more or read any more responses. Good day sir. mark
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          1. THE TRUTH IS LIVING AND REAL
            Posted On: 05/06/08 09:46:21 AMAge 64, OH
            Many men of God have watched the Lord Jesus being attacked and did not respond in anger. Jesus did not respond often in anger to the pharisees but he pharisees responded in anger constantly to Jesus and finally had Him killed only because He did not stop them. One lesson I have learned is the one taught in the story of Gideon. When their idol was destroyed the people got angry. They got angry because they already knew the idol could not talk, or walk, or defend itself because it was made of wood or stone. But I need not get angry when someone attacks the Truth for Jesus is well able to defend The Truth and has been doing so ever since the creation. Lou
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          2. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE AND ONLY WORD OF GOD
            Posted On: 05/06/08 09:36:58 AMAge 64, OH
            Mark, The Holy Scriptures are NOT the foundation that Jesus stands on but Jesus is THE FOUNDATION of THE SCRIPTURES. The scriptures are part of the creation and Jesus is The Creator. The Bible did not have anything to do with the creation but it was THE CREATOR Jesus WHO CREATED THE CREATION and the Bible is part of that creation. Jesus is the foundation and the framework of all truth FOR HE is The Truth as He has said. By the grace of God I have not lost any of my children to the world. I taught them to seek the Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus Christ and not the church. They were taught to read the scriptures to get to see and know Jesus Christ and then follow Him. My one son majored in physics and math and yet was not lost to the Godless thinking in the university. I went to the university myself and found that even the university was more friendly and open to individual thought than most churches. The pharisees followed the scriptures and did not even recognize the Author when He appeared before them. The scriptures tell us that The Word of God is The person of the Lord Jesus Christ and not a Book. In the Book it is written that "The sons of God are those who follow the Spirit." The Book NEVER says to follow the Book. Lou
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        2. No Proof except "The Bible Says?"
          Posted On: 05/01/08 11:19:41 PMAge 42, NM
          John, you say that the only proof of a young earth is that "the Bible says so" as if the Bible saying so is worthless. The Bible claims thousands of times to be the word of God who has always been there and witnessed the things He recorded in His word. If the Bible "says so" it is in fact the best argument possible, not the worst argument. All of man's arguments against what God's word says, are arguments of those who were not there to witness the things they claim to know about. So who's argument should be questioned, man's (who was not there and didn't see the events) or God's (who was there and never lies)? Furthermore the statement that there is no YEC evidence other than the Bible, is simply not true. The evidence that old earth creationists see is the same evidence that young earth creationists see. And it is the same evidence that evolutionists see. The difference is in presuppositions, not evidence. Evolutionists rule out the supernatural and without the supernatural a long time frame is necessitated. They base their view in their "belief" that man is the highest lifeform and they trust man's word. YEC's presuppose the supernatural activity of God and see many things in the natural world that backs up a young earth creation. They trust in God's word rather than man's. OEC's don't know who to trust. In any case, we all have the same evidence we just interpret it differently because we believe differently. No position can be "scientifically" proven, for no one can go back and test the theory to verify. The real problem OEC's have is answering how Jesus, taking the sin of the world on himself, is the answer and remedy for death, if death existed prior to sin. That's a real problem. Plus the fact that if death existed for millions of years before sin, then the scriptures lie when they say that man's sin brought death (Romans 5:12). The whole basis for salvation in Christ Jesus is eroded when we succumb to millions of years theology. The very word that we say we trust in regard to salvation becomes unreliable, unless we hold to YEC theology. Kevin.
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          1. Not true
            Posted On: 05/02/08 10:35:42 AMAge 47, MO
            Hey Kevin: What an amazing discussion, huh? No, I wasn't implying that "because the Bible says so" is worthless. If you reread my response, you will see human interpretations are worthless. Our interpretations are just that, interpretations. So, the truth is true regardless of our agreement. God is Truth, we don't know truth. We only see a reflection of truth (Jesus) that has been revealed to us. So, young earth proponents do not trust God's word and more than old earth proponents, what they trust is their pride and interpretations, while they ignore facts that demonstrate the earth being older than 6,000 years. Your dicotomy between YEC's and OEC's has no basis. OEC's are not minimizing God and elevating evolution, evolution has nothing to do with it. Also, sin has nothing to do with it since OEC's do not view earth time as starting prior to day four. You presuppose many things about my views that are just not true. However, you brought up a great point about A&E and the original sin that I just recently wrote about. Email me and I would love to send it to you. Bless God! John, jchristco@aol.com
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            1. Partial Concession
              Posted On: 05/03/08 12:46:01 PMAge 42, NM
              John, yes it is an amazing discussion...fun too! I understand the point you make about human interpretations being flawed, but God is the one who "revealed" truth to us and gave us His Word. So He must not believe that we are incapable of understanding and interpretation. If He did believe we were unable to correctly interpret why would He communicate to us at all? As far as pride goes - yes that's a problem. But not only for YEC's...its human nature. We tend to believe that the way we see things is the right way. As far as YEC's trusting their own interpretations while ignoring the facts: Every man or woman in Hebrews 11 trusted God's word against the facts. Abraham believe God even though it was a fact that Sarah was beyond childbearing. God's Word (if we understand it correctly) is always to be trusted above perceived "facts". As I reread my post, I'm not seeing where I presupposed "many things" about your views. I presupposed things about evolutionists and about YEC but said little about OEC's. My biggest objection/question to OEC is that of death before sin. And that has not been answered. How does animal death for millions of years before Adam's sin line up with God's Word in Romans 5:12? I will email you personally and have you send me your article. Perhaps your article answers my question. May we continue to sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron. Kevin.
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              1. Hello again
                Posted On: 05/03/08 07:11:14 PMAge 47, MO
                Mark, I completely agree that God wants us to discover the truth He revealed. I also think that revealed truth is 100% true and in complete agreement with all other revealed truth. Thus, what is true with God is also true in God's creation. When we understand this, we can look at miracles as without explanation, but perfectly acceptable. Thus, miracles are not magic. The point is that God may heal the eyes of the blind, place a coin in a fish's mouth, heal leprocy, etc, but he hasn't created since entering His rest. PLEASE EMAIL ME and I will send you the article I mentioned about death prior to sin. You will find it completely logical, acceptable, and BIBLICAL, yet contrary to what we ALL have been taught. Believe me, I was amazed when God revealed it to me only weeks ago. Thanks, John
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                1. hello again
                  Posted On: 05/04/08 04:24:58 PMAge 48, NC
                  John, You say that God hasn't created since he began his rest? That is not what I hear men like Dr. Ross saying. According to them we see stars continue to form. Although we don't actually see stars forming. What we do see are clouds, that when viewed through a naturalistic lense, could possibly reveal how stars form. Unless you mean that He no longer creates the processes but the processes continue to create new things while God is at rest. This also is based on naturalistic assumptions but also uses God as packing material, you know like those fluffy peanuts. It lacks a scriptural basis. You can send an email if you like to msparr01 at aol dot com. Whether or not I see it as logical and/or Biblical will depend on if it fits within my worldview and begins from a solid analysis of scripture without adding conjecture. I've read Lee Irons explanation and his was so full of conjecture I found it hard to imagine any serious Bible student would accept it as reasonable. It further confirmed to me that it is truly frightening what a church leader must accept in order to reconcile billions of years with a pure gospel. The oec position always begins with science has proved this or that, never with God's word says. Mark
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                  1. Young Earth vs the Smithsonian Darwinianism
                    Posted On: 05/06/08 12:57:18 PMAge 57, OR
                    Logic, history and Bible (not in that order) appear to be overshadowed by false science in refuting the young earth (Biblical) world-view. And it IS a world-view.. and leads to many subtle twisting further down that rabbit trail. Look at the science of it closely. And I do NOT mean high-school science, or Doctorate science (both heavily influenced by misinformation). I mean the science of ORDINARY REASON. God gave us reason. Forget for a moment politics, religion, education. Look at it all. Look at the Word of the Master Craftsman. Go figure! Some of it shows an amazing sense of humor! Do not LISTEN to me. Listen to your Saviour. Suggestion: go make a fossil. Yep! You can do it in no time! I urge you all to THINK HONEST! Not think "smart". God is smart. Not me or you. Therefore, it is all self evident to ordinary people without convoluted doctrines and biblicat double-speak! It is self evident, and except for misleading your children down the dark, dark Darwinian path to death, it does not matter a hill of beans what you or me think we know! (Can you by conscious thought change the color of your hair?) However, if we shove old earth stuff down folks throats in direct opposition to our Bible, then we must be careful. You do not know where it leads. Oh and a little idea I had: deceived folk don't know it! PGW
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                    1. We are not God
                      Posted On: 05/07/08 10:25:58 AMAge 47, MO
                      PGW: What proof do you have for a YEC? You don't have the testimony of the creation itself, you don't have the testimony of scripture, (for if you had, it would be irrefutable and we wouldn't have disagreement.) All you have is YOUR interpretation of Scripture. Agreed? So, why are you sure you are right and OEC's are wrong? Isn't this pride, (yes, that is what it is) what caused the "church" to persecute Galileo, Newton, Protestants, and Arminians, etc? The scriptures, the creation, the cosmos, nature, love, calamity, and suffering all reveal God (This is why a pigmy in Africa can come to Christ, the creator, without ever hearing the name of God.) So, what is true is always true because Jesus is the truth. Therefore truth must be spiritually discerned, "not of our pride, lest ANY man should boast." Friend; we think we are defending truth, yet, truth needs NO defense. Christ asks us to be a witness and to do that requires us to die to self, open our eyes, and marvel at what God has revealed thruout ALL His creation: me, you, the BOOK, nature, everything. Indeed the rocks SHOUT the glory of God. John
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                      1. OOH did you mean to come on so strong?
                        Posted On: 05/10/08 07:17:26 PMAge 57, OR
                        Irrefutable truth? HMM. OK, let's just say you are correct. I presume you are an old earther? Is that correct? Or a theistic evolutionist perhaps. There are in fact many hundreds of good examples all around us that point to a young earth. Maybe you know about them. I would like your old earth model for just ONE small old earth (old creation) situation. The moon (earth's moon). With precession, as observable and its orbital decay rates; as observables and its distances variances, our moon's orbit is predicatably increasing. Measurably it is getting further away. Extrapolations show at what point in the "distant past" it would have destroyed the earth's ecology if old earth doctrine were true. Not very long ago at all!! Ask the question: why were the Lunar Lander's legs 18" too long?? And, how deep WAS the moon dust?? PGW
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                  2. ONLY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS ETERNAL
                    Posted On: 05/06/08 09:17:51 AMAge 64, OH
                    In the beginning God CREATED the heavens and the earth. The word CREATED is only used three times in the account, once for the physical, once for the soulish realm, and once for the spiritual. God is the one who uses this word three times. The first act of creation is not conjecture but God says; He created the heavens and the earth. That is all of the universe and everything that exists in the physical realm. But it is also not conjecture but God says the earth was WITHOUT FORM or not formed yet. In the beginning God created OR MADE SOMETHING FROM NOTHING so to speak. He created all the MATTER AND ENERGY of the universe. But he universe is a constantly changing place and stars are being born and dying constantly. But these stars are NOT being created for the matter that they are formed from was created IN THE BEGINNING. It is the physical laws created by God that causes these stars to form. When a large star dies it explodes in a supernova and it makes more light than an entire galaxy. We can see these supernovas billions of light years away. We know the stars have a very long life because we can see the rate by which they die. Out of the billions of galaxies with each one containing billions of stars there are only a few stars that die every year. This is not conjecture but God has revealed truth as he promised to those who would search into His OTHER book, which is His creation, which he has said, The heavens declare the glory of God. Lou
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                2. Thanks
                  Posted On: 05/04/08 07:37:04 AMAge 42, NM
                  John, thanks for your response. I've already sent you an email. If you haven't gotten it, it may have been sent to a junk mail file or something. I'll await your email to me directly with your article attached. I look forward to reading it, following its logical conclusions and close adherance to the Biblical account, reserving judgment until then. Grace and Peace to you as well. Kevin.
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                  1. Not Yet
                    Posted On: 05/05/08 09:56:30 AMAge 47, MO
                    Hey Kevin: Well...I can't find it in spam or otherwise. Please reference CWN Sin Article in the subject line and I will see it. Thanks, John
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              2. HI KEVIN
                Posted On: 05/03/08 06:52:23 PMAge 64, OH
                Grace and peace to you Kevin. To answer your question about death before the sin of man PLEASE READ 1ST my post above titled "FROM THE BEGINNING THE PLANTS DECLARED THAT JESUS WOULD DIE FOR US" then after that please read "THE ANIMALS ARE NEVER MENTIONED IN THE CURSE". Lou
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      3. COULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN
        Posted On: 04/30/08 09:16:13 PMAge 64, OH
        Mark;thank you for your kind and thought provoking reply. The Lord has given me a mind that sees some things very easily but is slow to see other things. I would like to respond to your post, but i am not sure what you mean. Would you be kind enough to clarify your position in very simple words, so even i can understand. As far as the word "day" goes, it has about 10 meanings in the dictionary and the Lord uses just about all of them in the Holy Scriptures. I have shown a few of them in my post above. Lou
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