God knows everything
| Posted On: 04/24/08 06:41:55 PM |
Age 61, MO |
God has foreknowledge of all things, including what choices everyone will make. However, God does not make the choices for us. His desire is for all to repent and come to Christ (2 Peter 3:9), but He knows that all will not make that choice. Understand that no choice would even be possible without the omnipresence of God. Also understand that God choses us first. George Cancilla
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some comments
| Posted On: 04/24/08 03:22:00 PM |
Age 21, MN |
In terms of the Isaiah passage, open theists claim that all this verse is saying is that God will accomplish his purposes for redemption and salvation and the ultimate defeat of Satan. It doesn't say anything about ordaining the future or knowing exactly what will happen. God can accomplish His plans without meticulously controlling every aspect of Creation. God's wisdom is exalted in the bible just as much as His power is. The Ephesians passage doesn't necessarily require individual election. Corporate election is entirely possible in this passage because all of the verses leading up to it are addressing the church of Ephesus. Corporate election says that the promises God makes to The Church will be inherited by all who choose to join it. God chose whoever joins the the Church to be part of His plan for redemption. The Revelation passage is extremely ambiguous (it being apocalyptic literature) and the context leaves this verse sitting alone without much clarification at all, so be careful with that passage (I am not saying it doesn't support foreknowledge, but make sure the context supports it as well before you use it to support doctrine). The 1 Peter passage is only saying that Jesus was foreknown by God since the foundation of the world, and then second half of the verse says that Jesus had to manifest Himself for the redemption of mankind. I am not entirely sure what the passage is saying, but to me it seems that Jesus has been around before the foundation of the world with no intention of being manifest, yet the Fall happened, so He came to earth. Your analogy addressing Genesis 6:6 actually doesn't prove exhaustive foreknowledge, considering the fact that you used the world "probably" in the story, which implies contingency and possibility, two concepts not entirely compatible with exhaustive foreknowledge. Plus, it is pretty safe bet on the father's part that his kid will get tickets and get into an accident. The rate of teenager auto accidents are high, the fact that cops profile sports car drivers, the fact that teenagers are more likely to drive fast and stupid if they have a sports car (increasing the already high likelihood of getting a ticket and getting into an accident)...all of these factors make it a good guess. Still, there is a possibility that the kid won't get into a car accident or get any tickets. If the dad had any hope that his son wouldn't be irresponsible, he wouldn't have bought the car. But he did buy the car with the assumption that the possibility of nothing bad happening was there. Thus, his regret in this situation is genuine because the situation wasn't exhaustively foreknown or determined. I think this situation mimics closely how God thinks and acts. Did you know the sociologists can very accurately predict the way societies will progress? They cannot predict each individual choice made, but they can predict the final culmination of these choices. God does the same thing. Social forces drive society in certain directions. This is how part of the future is settled in that there are parameters and forces (some set in place by God) that direct the general direction of humankind. The individual details may not be determined, but the general outcome is. God will accomplish certain things (i.e. the final destruction of Satan and restoring of Creation) but let other things play out as they will. That part of the future is open. Concerning the Samuel passage, Samuel had been telling God to remove Saul from his throne, but God refused. Thus Samuel is lamenting over this. This one case where God didn't change his mind. What the times where Moses appealed to God to not destroy the Israelites, and God changed His mind? Also God's prediction of Saul's evil behavior is simple sociology at a divine level. God is aware of the fallen nature of politics, government, and human rulers, and thus did not want the Israelites to be involved in that. When they finally convinced him to give them a King, he reluctantly agreed but warned of the likely chance that Saul will turn evil (based on his knowledge of human rulership). This is extremely similar to your analogy but supports an open future with parameters. These passages where you say God predicted certain behaviors are just God using the knowledge He has of human behavior and realizing the likelihood of certain events. -Dan Smith
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- Great Thoughts, but...
| Posted On: 04/29/08 09:54:11 AM | | Age 39, KY |
As it relates to God's character and attributes, it really matters little "what you think." There is no exegesis or Biblical foundation for "I think this is how God is" and comparing Him as one who is equal with Sociologists. Where is the Scripture? God has given us His word so as not to be confused with our own "wisdom" when talking about His character and His attributes. It is when we move away from sound exegesis that we get into trouble, which is what the Open Theists (including your post) have done. We must never elevate our own ideas or thoughts over what Scripture plainly explains.
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THE MOST IMPORTANT FOUR WORDS OF THE BIBLE
| Posted On: 04/24/08 01:39:30 PM |
Age 64, OH |
The most important four words of the Holy Scriptures are probably "IN THE BEGINNING GOD". Before God created the heavens and the earth, or the universe, GOD WAS. So before space and TIME existed God was. God exists outside of space and time. God is not bound in any way by time. Small minds get into trouble when they wrestle with large problems. Dr. Boyd is using his small mind when he limits God and does not ask God and leave God show him the Truth. God can see the past, or present, or future. It is all the same to Him. God had no problem seeing the future before He even created the universe.
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- I've run across
| Posted On: 04/29/08 03:57:49 PM | | Age 29, TX |
...some people who try to evade the whole "God as an incompetent bungler" argument that logically arises as a result of believing God doesn't know everything. The most annoying of the theories (particularly annoying because I know the fellow online and he's quite brilliant and devout, so he should know better than to fall into this trap) is referred to as "voliscience" (his word). It means that God knows everything He CHOOSES to know. An attempt to describe it uses an analogy to human memory; but this is silly, because how would God choose to know something if He doesn't know that it needs knowing? LOGIC, people!--Mrs. Pilgrim
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