Scripture Alone
| Posted On: 04/24/08 03:54:34 PM |
Age 48, MN |
AL:
Could you please list the "traditions" that are God sanctioned and who decided those? Thank you.
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Scripture Alone
| Posted On: 04/24/08 03:38:34 PM |
Age 48, MN |
AL:
Could you please list the "traditions" that are God sanctioned and who decided those? Thank you.
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"Sola Scriptura" or "Nuda Scriptura"?
| Posted On: 03/10/08 12:24:35 PM |
Age 44, MN |
I am interested in your take here. I want to point out that "Sola Scriptura" does not, nor did it ever, mean "Scripture alone," as if we should never listen to anyone who has thought deeply about Scripture and written wisely about it during the 2,000 years of church history. A better interpretation of what the Reformers meant by this principle would be "Scripture above all"--that is, all other authorities must be submitted to the final authority of Scripture.
Do you believe in the Trinity? The word, as you no doubt know, never appears in Scripture. The concept does appear there, of course. And it needed to be protected from followers of Arius in the early 300s who insisted that according to the Gospel of Mark, Jesus was clearly a "servant of God," who did not know certain things that God the Father knew, and who said "call no man good, only God," etc. . . . and that Jesus, subservient to God, was therefore clearly a creature--not an eternal member of the Trinity.
The church met to combat this heresy at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Their resulting statement, adding nothing to the authority of Scripture, but rather explaining its teachings on the Trinity, is called the Nicene Creed.
Whether we should consider the Nicene Creed to be the last word for our churches today, or whether we should repeat it together in church services, I don't know. But I do know that without that council and that creed, the heresy denying the divinity of Christ would have been much more widespread than it was.
This is the kind of "tradition" I affirm: not tradition as an equal authority alongside Scripture, but tradition as a subsidiary authority, a hermeneutical aid: the collective wisdom of wise teachers, both honored and recognized as a "normed norm"--that is, a guide that itself must always be checked and corrected (normed) by Scripture.
Why do we need this sort of tradition? Because what Scripture says on every matter is not always obvious and clear to every reader. That's why the blessed fundamentalists (I'm not being flip--I owe my faith, indirectly, to their faithfulness) have split into hundreds of mutually contradicting warrior-churches: Individual interpretations of Scripture, founded securely on proof-texts but un-moored from other texts and the history of wise interpretation, have been the cause of every heresy since the beginning of the church.
Do we, then, affirm a Magisterium--a single church like the Roman catholic, whose hierarchy has all the answers, and which must never be questioned? By no means. That is why I join other evangelical voices, in my article, in arguing against conversion to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.
But does that mean we throw every Christian back on their own individual reason as they read the Bible? Do we refuse to follow the example of Martin Luther and John Calvin, who read, quoted, and honored the many voices of biblical interpretation from church history; who repeated and affirmed the creeds of the early councils; who published compendiums of the early church fathers' teachings on justification; who read and honored (and sometimes re-published) such medieval teachers as Bernard of Clairvaux and such late medieval mystical works as the _Theologia Germanica_?
Did Luther and Calvin affirm the authority of any of these sources above that of Scripture? God forbid! Did they engage these sources to grow wiser and better in the teaching and living of the gospel? They certainly did!
For more on the Reformers' use of tradition, read the fourth chapter of Baylor professor and Baptist D. H. Williams's recent Book _Evangelicals and Tradition_. And I'd be happy to dialogue with you further, if you'd like.
Peace,
Chris
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Scripture Alone Disproves "Scripture Alone"
| Posted On: 03/05/08 12:49:25 PM |
Age 46, AL |
2 Thess. 2:14 - Paul says that God has called us "through our Gospel." What is the fullness of the Gospel?________
2 Thess. 2:15 - the fullness of the Gospel is the apostolic tradition which includes either teaching by word of mouth or by letter. Scripture does not say "letter alone." The Catholic Church has the fullness of the Christian faith through its rich traditions of Scripture, oral tradition and teaching authority (or Magisterium).________
2 Thess 3:6 - Paul instructs us to obey apostolic tradition. There is no instruction in the Scriptures about obeying the Bible alone (the word "Bible" is not even in the Bible).________
1 Tim. 3:14-15 - Paul prefers to speak and not write, and is writing only in the event that he is delayed and cannot be with Timothy.________
2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says apostolic tradition is passed on to future generations, but he says nothing about all apostolic traditions being eventually committed to the Bible.
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- I see
| Posted On: 03/06/08 12:26:54 PM | | Age 40, CA |
You are an apostolic or pentecostal. I understand why you don't believe in depending on Scripture alone. There are a lot of things you guys practice that can't be proven through Scripture, so, you use experiences and sensations (alone) to prove some of your beliefs. Me, I am simply a born-again Christian who uses the Bible and only the Bible to form a doctrine on which to base my life with Christ. If it ain't in the Bible, I don't preach it.
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Scripture Alone Disproves "Scripture Alone"
| Posted On: 03/04/08 01:22:47 PM |
Age 46, AL |
1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone.__________
Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. There is nothing ever about obeying Scripture alone.________
Col. 4:16 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Laodicea is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul once again appeals to a source outside of the Bible to teach about the Word of God._______
1 Thess. 2:13 – Paul says, “when you received the word of God, which you heard from us..” How can the Bible be teaching first century Christians that only the Bible is their infallible source of teaching if, at the same time, oral revelation was being given to them as well? Protestants can’t claim that there is one authority (Bible) while allowing two sources of authority (Bible and oral revelation).________
1 Thess. 3:10 - Paul wants to see the Thessalonians face to face and supply what is lacking. His letter is not enough.
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- 1 Corinthians 4:6
| Posted On: 03/05/08 08:34:59 AM | | Age 53, VA |
I think 1 Corinthians 4:6 best encapsulates the whole counsel of the Bible. Apostolic tradition has now been written down for our benefit. 1 Cor. 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. -luke
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Slippery Slope
| Posted On: 03/04/08 01:08:34 PM |
Age 40, CA |
We open doors to dangerous doctrines when we go outside of Scripture. One simple and very self-supporting reason is: there is no established measure (other than the Bible) to distinguish truth from mere speculation. If you claim that the Holy Spirit revealed it to you -- then, you must indicate so, and let others know that they are free to agree or not agree. If you draw speculation from sound Scripture, you must, again, indicate so and allow yourself and others who hear you to know that your speculation, although based on truth, is still speculation -- and they are free to agree or disagree.
We should strive to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11, "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Again,"...They examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." How can anyone argue against this very clear example of how to ensure sound doctrine?
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- uh?
| Posted On: 03/04/08 01:20:16 PM | | Age 46, AL |
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
This scriptures that Paul mentions is none other than the Old Testament scriptures. At the juncture in time when Paul wrote this the only recognized scriptures were the Old Testament Scriptures.
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- Response
| Posted On: 03/06/08 12:17:48 PM | | Age 40, CA |
Paul was preaching the Good News of Jesus Christ -- the Gospel, which at the time was spoken because the New Testament had not been written. Do you not notice, after reading Acts 17:11, that the Gospel can be proven and safeguarded by the Old Testament Scriptures? By the way, using the Old Testament to verify the Gospel was part of the criteria for accepting the books and letters of the New Testament into the New Testament Canon. Therefore, just as the Old Testament can be used to verify whether some preacher is preaching the true Gospel, so can the New Testament (2 Tim 3:16). In other words, if the Old Testament can verify the Gospel, why can't the New Testament? Of course it can. And, since both serve the same purpose why would anyone accept verifying the words of a preacher using the Old Testament, and ignore such a "noble" practice in the New Testament.
If it ain't in the Bible, then I don't know what it is. Many people believe in weird stuff that is not supported or found in the Bible -- e.g. violently flopping around on the ground and claiming that a person cannot control themselves when they speak in tongues. These two (and there are many more) are not supported by Scripture. I beleive the true motivation (which may not even be known by the person) is to show others how spiritual a person is. I don't think it's spiritual at all -- just heightened emotional and psychological experiences. We can argue all day long of the legitimacy of these experiences but I'd rather not. I was born and raised in this type of religious Christianity and at the age of 33 was awakend by the Holy Spirit to the Truth found in Scripture alone, and ever since then I haven't looked back.
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- Scriptural Historicity
| Posted On: 03/04/08 02:56:44 PM | | Age 45, MN |
Yes, there was no accepted Greek canon of Scripture (other than the Septuagint) when the books of the Apostolic Scriptures were penned. Most Protestants who oppose the RCC don't realize that they continue to use the Catholic terms Old Testament and New Testament to artificially divide the Scriptures. One part is of and for the "old" possessors of God's wrath - Jews, and the other part is of and for the "new" possessors of God's grace - Christians (sic). The Hebrew text, known as the Tanach, was Jesus' and His Apostle's Scriptures. This is the text that Paul refers to in 2 Timothy 3:15 "...and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." And in Acts 24:14 "...I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets."
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THERE IS A DITCH ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ROAD
| Posted On: 03/04/08 01:05:44 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Jesus said the road to life was straight and narrow; if one goes into the ditch on either side he is lost. RIGHT SIDE DITCH: On one side you have the pharisees who say that we are to be lead by the Bible and the Bible alone. But Jesus told the pharisees in John 5:You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life. We are to follow the Author of the Book not the Book. But the Author will never tell us anything that disagrees with the Holy Scriptures that He wrote. LEFT DITCH: There are many who fall into this trap also. They say there are other writings other than the Holy Scriptures. The Book of Mormon, Koran, The Watchtower, and the writings of many so called prophets. Yet God Almighty did not see fit to included there writings in the Bible. God kept on adding to the writings of the Holy Scriptures and could have included the Book of Mormon but did not. If one would read the BOM and then read the Bible they will see why the BOM is not included for it is full of errors and disagrees with what God wrote in the Bible. The BOM does not even agree with the BOM. The Mormons say Joseph Smith is The Prophet and everything he said was from God. Joseph Smith said Jesus was not God. But the BOM says that Jesus is God Almighty. This is true of all these OTHER books. I have read all that I could find and they are all CRAP (Completely Ridiculous And Preposterous). Lou
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- Misapplication
| Posted On: 03/06/08 02:22:31 PM | | Age 40, CA |
Jesus knew what was in the heart of man. He knew that the Pharisees were "sons of the devil," "a brood of vipers," "open sepulchers," or in other words -- they did not have eternal life. And Jesus said it in the verse you cited (John 5), "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life." Jesus said that they depended on Scripture alone to gain eternal life. We who believe in following "Scripture alone" do not believe that we gain eternal life through Scripture alone -- but also with the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit. The partnership of these two powers (Holy Spirit and the Gospel) is clearly indicated in Scripture: Holy Spirit giving life: John 6:63, "...It is the Spirit who gives life..." AND life through the Word of God: 1 Pet 1:23, "...for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." and Rom 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes..."
In simple terms, the Holy Spirit deposits the imperishable seed (the Gospel) in the heart of an unbeliever, and life (eternal life) begins to grow. As you know this is comparable to the way a male deposits his seed into a female and life begins to grow.
One problem most people have, who don't believe in Scripture alone, is that they become a little confused and therefore, as a consequence, their theology becomes muddled.
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- THERE IS ONLY ONE BOOK - THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD
| Posted On: 03/07/08 03:23:25 PM | | Age 64, OH |
You say,We who believe in following "Scripture alone" do not believe that we gain eternal life through Scripture alone -- but ALSO with the life-giving power of the Holy Spirit. The PARTNERSHIP OF THESE TWO POWERS (Holy Spirit and the Gospel) is clearly indicated in Scripture: Holy Spirit giving life: John 6:63, "...It is the Spirit who gives life..." AND life through the Word of God: - Well for what you say to be true, we would have to rewrite The Book of Isaiah. 3 For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; and again Before me no god was formed,nor will there be one after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. - God Almighty makes it very clear there is NO PARTNERSHIP OR ANY OTHER POWER. The whole of the Holy Scriptures tell us that there is but One and Only One God. There is Only One Life giving force in this universe and that is The Lord Jesus Christ and Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD and there is no other. You say that "we... do not believe that we gain eternal life through scripture alone". This is heresy to The One True Savior. It is written in the Holy Scriptures that if anyone trusts in Jesus and something else to save them; then Jesus can not save them. FOR IT IS WRITTEN THAT WE MUST TRUST IN JESUS ALONE FOR HIM TO SAVE US. We must not trust in the creation (the Book is part of the creation) but we must trust in The One and Only CREATOR. Lou
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- THE WORD OF GOD IS A SPIRIT NOT A BOOK
| Posted On: 03/07/08 03:02:18 PM | | Age 64, OH |
Friend it was the pharisees who believed in SCRIPTURE ALONE, as you do, who had the muddled thinking. The disciples followed The person of The Lord Jesus Christ and then found that scripture agreed with what Jesus had told them. You say,We who believe in following "Scripture alone" do not believe that we gain eternal life through Scripture alone. - Talk about muddled thinking; you are saved or lost by what you follow. Your god is what you look to and you have stated that you look to a Book. - You TRUST what you follow and you follow what you trust. You want to trust in the Book but then say you are trusting in Jesus. Are you saying that we should not Trust The Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus. Are you saying that He is not trustworthy OR are you saying that he is not able to cause us blind men to see. Men who trust in the Book are proven to go astray. How many interpretations are there of any scripture. A Book is not trustworthy because every man will read it different. But if a man trust in the Lord Jesus He is willing and ABLE to make us see His interpretation which is always the One correct Way. - There are those who claim to follow the Spirit and do not, but follow their own desires. These men all disagree and there are many groups of them. There are also those who claim to follow the Book and there are just as many groups of them; because when they read the Book there understanding is influenced by their desires the same as those who claim to follow the Spirit. The Sons of God are NOT those who claim to follow the Spirit and also not those who follow the Book. THE SCRIPTURES SAY THE SONS OF GOD ARE THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE SPIRIT. The Book itself tells us to follow the Spirit. There is no place where we are told to follow the Book. Lou
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- Not quite
| Posted On: 03/07/08 11:28:08 AM | | Age 47, MO |
You are suggesting that being saved is a mental accent or agreement. This may work for an openn minded intelectual but does nothing for a child or the infirmed. Friend, Jesus is the word of God and He plants that seed (of Himself) in our hearts. Indeed, it is the seed of the gospel (The gospel, the good news) is Christ. You need to rethink your thesis. John
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Scripture NO?
| Posted On: 03/04/08 12:15:50 PM |
Age 46, AL |
The man-made Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is as valid as the man-made Doctrine of "IF IT AINT THE KJV, IT AINT THE BIBLE"
My personal Doctrine if I had any would be more accurate: "If it aint the Greek, it aint the Bible" :)
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Scripture; NO!
| Posted On: 03/04/08 11:57:19 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Bob: I see your intent but I disagree on your premise of "sola Scriptura." Sola Scriptura has led to Judiism, 7day Adventist, JW, Baptist, Methodist, etc. They all, and many more, will argue to the death that they are the true adherents to Scripture. Obviously, their adherence is not the answer and scripture is not the answer, because they are not the truth but a testimony of the truth- Christ. Sola Christ is the only way, truth, and life. Any other is folly and our adherence should be to the HS (Christ in us), who agrees with Scripture and properly discerns its revelation. So yes, Christ is STILL revealing Himself, but His revelation would be in agreement with what has already been revealed. "Where two or three gather (Me, You, Scripture) there I am in your mist". This is because our Spirits would be subjected to the Holy Spirit, who would discern Scriptural truth- Christ. John
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