Called to do what?
| Posted On: 01/20/08 03:41:52 PM |
Age 56, CA |
quote - It is out of this unmerited, undeserved, self-sacrificial, unfailing agape love that comes the courage and the boldness to contend for the faith, to instruct in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict ... unquote
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What faith? What doctrine? Roman Catholic? Reformed? Orthodox? Lutheran? Baptist? Evangelical? Pentecostal? All of these gatherings-of-believers contradict each other, often in major ways. Mr. Camp's proposal would have each of us pick up real swords with which to slay all those who contradict. This is nothing less than a call to go back to real religious warfare with real bloodshed. Is that a useful model to aspire to?
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On the other hand, aren't we (male and female) actually called to simply teach the "Word" (what the Bible actually says), rather than teach "truth" as Mr. Camp suggests, and leave it to the Holy Spirit to reveal to the hearer what that Word means (the "truth" part)? We are not called to convict or save anyone. We are called only to teach the Word to those who have not heard it. God reserves to Himself the ability to convict and to save. What part do swords, velvet or otherwise, play in any of this?
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- REAL SWORDS ? ? ?
| Posted On: 01/24/08 05:26:05 PM | | Age 64, OH |
What you say is plain silly. Steve DID NOT say we should pick up real swords and slay each other. If you would read with more care then you would see more truth. By the way the word is NOT what the Bible actually says. The Bible tells us that The Word is The Lord Jesus Christ. That is why we read the Bible; for His Holy Spirit to actually speak to us. Lou
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- Real Bloodshed ???
| Posted On: 01/24/08 09:43:32 AM | | Age 47, TX |
I might have given your statements some consideration, but sir, you lost all credibility by accusing Mr Camp of calling for use of actual warfare and bloodshed. That is what YOU literally said. That is not at all what I understood Mr Camp to say. Your post seems to underscore his point. It seems that YOU can't handle the truth.
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- Christ is the Truth
| Posted On: 01/24/08 09:27:27 AM | | Age 47, MO |
Friend: You almost got it right. However, True Truth is Christ only. It is not scripture or church tradition, niceties, the sacraments, wine or juice, Maryology, which day is the Lords day, etc. If churches would just preach Christ only there would be a lot less division. John
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Effeminate American Men
| Posted On: 01/19/08 11:08:15 PM |
Age 59, MS |
In the King James Version of the Bible, First Corinthians 6:9, it says that the effeminate will not inherit the kingdom of God. In Revelation 21:8 it says the cowardly will have their part in the lake of fire. "Effeminate" means "soft" -- perhaps speaking of the lack of muscular strength due to laziness, or flabbiness due to ease of life and overconsumption. Jesus asked his audience in Matthew 11:7-9 a rhetorical question about John the Baptist. He said, "What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind?" (Of course not, John wasn't a product of his culture whose doctrines bent with the winds of "political correctness"; he was a courageous and upright spokesman for God.) Jesus continued, "But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold those who wear soft clothing are in kings' palaces." We see some kind of connection between softness, the effeminate and "politically correct" kind, and the effeminate men who parrot what the king and others want to hear. John was a real man, as Jesus so clearly pointed out. He was courageous, but he got beheaded for it.
American males have been trained since 1966, the year the feminist organization NOW was founded, that women should be the leaders, do the work, and be "mammas" to their husbands. The TV depicts men more often than not to be inept, unintelligent, foolish, and worthless. That is one reason we have effeminate men in America today. It is not just evangelicals who are effeminate; it's a trait of our whole culture.
Our culture will not undergo revival until boys are trained by their fathers to work hard, be honest, and be morally pure. And this will not happen until God "restores the hearts of the fathers to their children," as Malachi 4:6 says.
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As in the days of Noah
| Posted On: 01/19/08 09:31:33 PM |
Age 45, AR |
I'm sitting in New Orleans as I respond to this article and its following dialog and I can't help but comment on the remarkable similarities between the homosexuality, drunkeness and feminism that I see on the street here and that from the days of Noah as we know them. There is absolutely no difference between the gender roles practiced by the drunken crowds on the street here in New Orleans and the gender roles now practiced in debauched American churches across the land. Equality is and always has been the rallying cry of the devils servants when it comes to the separation of gender roles in both cases. But alas, we are past that cry for equality stage of feminist development now in America with the exception of the few males who had a small taste of how things used to be and then somehow escaped society for a few years long enough for time and debauchery to race ahead of them. That phase is now concluded for this generation of people. Healthy marriage is a thing of the past for this generaton. Gay marriage, that is, marriage between equals is now the norm. Women really are not naturally predisposed to recognize the difference between themselves and men to a degree that it cannot be programmed out of them by a homosexual society. If gender difference is not forcefully taught by society, then homosexuality is always the result, both in men and in women. It takes extensive and comprehensive times of extreme hardship and desperation before women once again recognize the difference between themselves and men. But the fact is that when those times come as in the days of Noah and Sodom, there are not any of those evildoers left to repent, to change their ways or to tell the story of how it used to be when feminism was the rule rather than the exception. God has remained silent for many years now concerning this wickedness of feminism and homosexuality that has invaded both church and society. And just as an earthquake silently builds pressure over time and gives no warning; so also will come the wrath of God. If you, on the other hand, believe that women should have the right to vote and hold public office, then don't complain to me that you are discriminated against and shown disrespect as a man. Don't complain to me that divorce courts are biased in favor of women. And don't complain to me that a woman took your job and left you without a paycheck. You helped to create that perversion if you believe in womens rights. The fact is that if you now believe that women should have rights, then you would be one of those who would bring feminism back to start the process all over again after God destroys it at the end of this age. On the other hand, if you are one of those men who have stood against feminism with its homosexual forces and tendencies and you've been kicked in the teeth for doing so while wondering why God won't come back and execute justice, then take heart. Wait for God and He will deliver just as He did the saints of old. But don't be like Lot's wife and look back to pity this society when fire falls upon it from heaven. Yes, God is slow to wrath because He has lessons for us to learn in the mean time. Let's learn them well. Take notes. God is not equal to His bride the church as that would be an insult to Him. He is not weak. God wants us to see feminism in the same way He sees it. But that does not mean that His wrath and judgment are not coming. You have just enough time to observe the wicked and learn not to walk in their ways and then it's all over. Learn well. In the next generation, women will not speak disrespectfully to men, neither will they act as if they are equal to men.
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- physiological testimony
| Posted On: 01/24/08 09:47:29 AM | | Age 47, MO |
Outstanding! Pure physiology attests to the fact that men are straight line, women are circular. Those traits are also apparent in the way we see the world and reason. Masculinity is decisive, cunning, and giving. Femininity is protective, nurturing, and harboring. To use another physiological example; men give it and leave it, women recieve it and protect it. You don't believe it, have an arguement with your wife and she will remember it 10 years later! Friends; It's not a disparaging remark to point out differences, as Pepe Le'pue, says; "Viva la Difference." However, the differences have largely been errased in the culture due to societal pressures, laws, and ease of life. That will change and men will once again be men and women will be women, when living becomes a struggle. John
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Tough Territory
| Posted On: 01/19/08 01:31:50 PM |
Age 50, IN |
Steve
Good article. You are "bolding going where no man should go," unless he has a firm grip on God's Word, ample courage, and a tough hide. Dealng with feminism in the church is, indeed, not for the "faint of heart." I have found that feminism has so permeated our culture and the church that many Christian women are unaware of how deeply it is entrenched in their minds and affects their attitudes toward men, ... and then men may react either in an abusive or an emasculated manner. (Of course, many men struggle with chauvinistic unbiblical attitudes as well.) I have seen this struggle between the genders often, and the only loving peace I've seen coming to either males or females is when they are willing to truly examine God's Word in light of culture and then endeavor to align themselves with the biblical masculinity and biblical femininity as God has planned. Then the "puzzle pieces" of gender mesh beautifully, and there is harmony in the home. Feminism definitely has the upper hand over chauvinism these days, so, battling feminism in the church is a painful struggle all the way. Wisdom, Courage, and Compassion to you, Steve.
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Men and Women encouraged to contend for the faith
| Posted On: 01/18/08 12:44:10 PM |
Age 54, CANADA |
Steve wrote: "Where are the men of God that are willing to contend for the once for all delivered to the saints faith?"
The body of Christ needs men AND women to contend for the faith. As a full-time apologist who daily contends for the faith and who is also a woman, I was saddened to see the sexist attitude displayed that only encouraged males to contend for the faith. I was also saddened to see that being "nice" was used as a "feminine" characteristic that is not to be emulated by a "real man". The fact is that all of us are called to contend for the faith and it is a godly thing (not a male thing) to stand up and be counted in defending the gospel. The fact is also that we are to defend the faith with gentleness and respect and these are godly characteristics not feminine ones.
Steven would also have done well to encourage men to take the biblical view of contending for the faith with "gentleness" and "respect". Certainly "nice" is a quality of "gentleness". I have seen too many men apologists who have contended for the faith in a obnoxious manner and who would not qualify as gentle or nice. It may not be easy, but contending strongly for the faith can be done without being mean or rude. I have worked hard at being gentle in my ministry work of contending for the faith for 20 years now. I have contended for the faith in a strong way and even named names when exposing the errors. But I have done it as scripture tells me to do it with gentleness and respect. Those who equate this with "feminine" are actually putting men down because this is the requirement that is given by scripture of a real leader. Strong? Yes! Respectful? Yes! A respectful attitude is required of godly leaders and those who do not mix a strong defense of the gospel with a respectful and gentle and humble attitude are not reading scripture very well.
I would highly recommend that Steve be humble enough to rewrite this article. The point he makes about our standing up for the gospel and not backing down to the false teachers is a wonderful point. But his segregating the call for males alone and his equating a respectful (nice) attitude when contending for the faith as a "feminine" characteristic can be considered a slight against his sisters in Christ as well as many of his godly brothers in Christ. His points could be made in a much stronger and clearer fashion if he would leave aside any comments regarding male and female characteristics. These comments only support the worldly view where the majority of the planet equates anything feminine as inferior and as things to be shunned. Since Jesus entrusted the gospel of the resurrection to women first, his trust in his feminine "sons" is no less than his masculine "sons". Let's lead like Jesus did and hold each other up in high regard and treat men and women both as spiritual equals in the work of contending for the faith.
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- men and women are NOT gender neutral
| Posted On: 01/24/08 04:27:09 PM | | Age 47, MO |
Hello: I think you mis characterized Steve's letter. Since he was telling men to be manly, why would you assume that for a woman to be feminine is a sin? I could understand your remarks if he was telling woman to go against their nature and be masculine. Yes, Jesus' salvation is for men and women equally and both are to contend for the faith, but both don't contend in equal ways. Therefore, you err when you wrote: "Let's lead like Jesus did and hold each other up in high regard and treat men and women both as spiritual equals in the work of contending for the faith." If your statement is true as gender neutral then Paul would not have said for the woman to cover her hair, remain silent, not to teach, and to be saved through child bearing. We each have roles to play and they require gender specific attributes. John
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- Wonderful!!
| Posted On: 01/20/08 01:39:26 AM | | Age 31, IN |
What a marvelous response!! I especially like the fact that your response displays and models precisely the virtues at issue: contending for the truth, but doing so with gentleness and respect. You've shown that you can be assertive, bold, and strong without thereby compromising respectfulness or humility. Thank you for your service to the faith over these many years; and thank you also for your service to the readers of this article - you identified exactly the problems that unfortunately overwhelm and obscure its merits. Your response is a wonderful example of matching one's words and deeds; it shows in two different ways (by argument and by example) why this whole "feminization" complaint is totally wrong-headed.
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Women read Proverbs 31
| Posted On: 01/18/08 11:32:23 AM |
Age 64, OR |
Scriptures tells women (young and old, married or not) they are the "weaker vessel" and men are to honor them, while women are to respect men. It is God who gives spiritual authority in the church and family to the man - not the women. It all takes us back to the garden of Eden where the woman was deceived by Satan/the serpent.
In the assembly of believers women are to hold their tongue and wait until they are at home to ask their husbands questions.
That said, any woman who challenges God's directives have their rebellion not with their husband or church male leadership but are in rebellion against God - directly.
It is a disturbing fact though that many churches are lacking in male leadership - true masculine leadership. In the home and in church women have emotionally and spiritually castrated men and that my friends is a "subtly deceptive" work of Satan! So you women who take offense at true masculine leadership - not the wimps now in most pulpits - you are being subtly deceived by Satan who is roaming the Earth to seek and devour (YOU)!
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More info...
| Posted On: 01/18/08 08:44:35 AM |
Age 47, MO |
I've written a tremendous amount on this subject. If anyone interested, email me at jchristco@aol.com
a
Also, there is a great book called; No More Christian Nice Guy, by Paul Caughlin (I think that's his name)
a
Thanks, John
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- Quotes
| Posted On: 01/24/08 04:31:01 PM | | Age 47, MO |
An interesting quote from Plato. "The head is to rule the belly through the chest. That is, reason must rule sentiment through a passion for the truth". CS Lewis simply said: "Modern culture has produced men without chests". So true. John
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not offensive
| Posted On: 01/17/08 06:56:04 PM |
Age 48, IL |
With all due respect, I don't believe Steve meant to offend women. It was a mere example to the lack of male bravery and unbiblical approach in rightly dividing and defending God's truth. I am a Christian woman, and I take no offense to this, perhaps spiritual maturity and discernment will bring about a better understanding to those who got their feelings hurt. He was trying to motivate Christian men to be mighty men of God. Like the apostle Paul says in Ephesians 6:19, 'and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel'
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- SECURE WOMAN
| Posted On: 01/18/08 11:29:32 AM | | Age 64, OH |
It is nice to hear from a Christian woman who is secure in her womanhood. Lou
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Feminization of the Evangelical Man
| Posted On: 01/17/08 06:40:31 PM |
Age 38, AUSTRALIA |
Good article Steve & lots of interesting comments thus far.
A good book to read is "A Twist of Faith" by Berit Kjos (www.crossroad.to). In her book Berit shares her research on the influence of feminist spirituality on the church, & how it is subtly changing & betraying many.
"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9
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so the Fruit of the Spirit is Feminization???
| Posted On: 01/17/08 06:19:27 PM |
Age 37, FL |
While I agree with the issues raised in this article about a watered down "pc" gospel, I see no correlation with this behavoir and femininity or feminism for that matter. Is this to say that women are not expected to boldly defend the faith? God forbid! Nothing in scripture would indicate such a notion. And such "feminine" attributes that seem to disgust Mr. Camp (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness & temperance- aka the Fruit of the Spirt) are charachteristics of a Spirit-filled walk with God. If these traits, which were embodied by Jesus Christ could not be reconciled to spreading and defending the Gospel then I doubt we would be encouraged to seek to live them. As a woman, I am not offended by this article because what was meant to be a derogatory term toward women actually is contending that these "feminine" characteristics are held by women and not men. I disagree, because the most effective and humble servants of God that I know, that also happen to be men, diplay this Fruit of the Spirit. However, THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT!
I hope Steve Camp revisits this topic and puts some serious prayer into articles that would help God's children put an end to this ugly sexism and labelling and seek a scriptural view of how we should represent ourselves as Christians to a world that is disgusted with our haughty, self-righteous and hypocritical attitudes. So many Christians speak of "agape" love and react with such nasty attitudes toward people who resist the Gospel message. That was not the example of Jesus, He not only talked it, HE walked it! If we were all more Christ-like and submissive to God and each other (as Paul exhorted us to) there would be no need for these ugly attitudes.
Sadly, the focus on "Feminization" in this article actually detracted from the nuggets of truth at the heart of the matter... spreading the Gospel bodly and without shame. We are ALL called to do this, MEN and WOMEN alike!
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