Thank you
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:59:31 AM |
Age 43, MN |
Thank you for your article. Most in the church think Warren and his work are wonderful just like I did until I witnessed what his program did to our church and many of my relatives churches. People need the truth brought to light by presenting the facts about him and his ministry. A few that concern me: his world PEACE plan, meeting with world leaders without sharing the gospel, teaching churches to operate like businesses, recommending emergent/new age authors to the pastors through his weekly pastors tool box by e-mail, his teachings on cutting out "sick" parts of the church body like cancer, calling church members with biblical questions about his methods "troublemakers" and recommending books on how to implement his program which call resisters "Sanballats"(leaders from hell),working with the United Nations for world peace, on the Council of Foreign Relations, purpose driven nations and synagogues without the gospel, not sharing the gospel on national tv appearances (Franklin Graham,Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron do each time I see them on tv interviews), his 3-legged stool of business/government/religion having to work together to solve world problems,his prayer of salvation in purpose driven video without cross/sin/repent even mentioned yet congratulates them on now being a child of God, his treatment of Christians who try to expose these things (world net daily, lighthouse trails, my e-mail), holding AIDS summits at his church (in CA) while California schools now required by legislation passed to teach full homosexual dogma instead of "mom and dad" marriage, ..... just too many red flags for me.
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Mr
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:25:13 AM |
Age 49, MD |
Let's keep everything clean, Ingrid; my feedback, and your commentary on Rick Warren. You impute motives to Rick and slander him, but you bring few facts to the table. Essentially, you criticize him for "eating with sinners and tax collectors" and for engaging the modern equivalent of the philosophers on their own Mars Hill turf; what is your biblical basis for this? Is it your agenda to ghetto-ize evangelical Christianity in this fallen culture further than it already is? If so, what is your thinking behind this philosophy? What scriptures do you find to support this thinking?
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- read the scripture
| Posted On: 12/07/07 08:30:54 PM | | Age 44, TX |
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=false+prophets&searchtype=all&version1=31&spanbegin=1&spanend=73
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But Look at the Numbers
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:15:00 AM |
Age 45, NC |
You guys don't get it. Its all about the numbers. Hasn't Rick Warren said they speak for themselves? Isn't that the mark of success? The attendence, the size of the building? The little Bible-teaching church I attend could never match up.
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- It's not about the numbers
| Posted On: 12/07/07 04:18:53 PM | | Age 47, KS |
Christianity is not about numbers. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's about obedience to God's word. Yes, it is about sharing the good news that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of every sinner. But it's not about how big a church can grow. Churches that give truth, unvarnished truth, grow without all the bells and whistles....I attend one.
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Why are you so mean?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:05:23 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Ingrid:
Sometimes you amaze me, Why is it difficult for you to see that there is no absolute right or wrong to a grey issue problem? The solution has to be in the middle of the road, that way everyone is happy that they were part of the solution, see? However, there will always be some stupid kook on the fringe that will make any solution irrelevent and we must save him from himself, can't you feel his pain? We all believe abstinance is the answer but not everyone is smart enough to heed our advice, so we must reach out to where they are at and offer a solution that rescues them from their self inflicted pain. If we save them from the pain, then the problem is irrelevent. Just give a fish, and they will live another day. WWJD? Jesus would love them and understand their problems and face it, we all got problems. Why are you so mean? Fine, I'm just gonna hold my breath until you see it my way, I am. Really!
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What is unbiblical about the Purpose Driven Life?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 09:02:17 AM |
Age 50, NC |
I understand your concern about the recent meetings Rick Warren has had at Saddleback. However, I do not understand why you refer to the Purpose Driven Life as unbiblical.
I am a fundamental, Bible-believing Pastor who has been through the Purpose Driven Life more than once and taught the same. I have not seen anything in the book that does not line up with Scripture.
Would you please give the page numbers and paragraphs you are refering to along with the Scriptures these contradict.
Revealing the Father's Heart,
Greg
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- just 2 examples
| Posted On: 12/08/07 09:25:06 AM | | Age 43, MN |
pg285-quoting Rick "When the disciples wanted to talk about prophecy, Jesus quickly switched the conversation to evangelism. He wanted them to concentrate on their mission in the world. He said in essence, "The details of my return are none of your business. What IS your business is the mission I've given you. Focus on that!"
pg286-quoting Rick "If you want jesus to come back sooner, focus on fulfilling your mission, not figuring out prophecy.It is easy to get distracted and sidetracked from your mission because Satan would rather have you do anything besides sharing your faith." The Bible says the opposite: Jesus answered the disciples with 94 verses in Matthew 24-25, 34 verses in Mark 13, and 30 verses in Luke 21. All are direct answers detailing what will happen in respose to the disciples question. Not to mention God giving us Rev. Dan. 2Thess.2, 1Thess.4&5, 2Tim.3&4 and many other passages with more details of His 2nd coming. In fact, He gives a special crown of righteousness for those who love his appearing 11Tim.4:8. God also has 3-4 times the # of verses warning us of His 2nd coming compared to the # of verses prophesing His 1st coming. Believe me, I was a small group leader for Purpose Driven until I read the Bible and now have hundreds of examples like this from Rick's 1st and 2nd 40-day books. The saddest though was the prayer of salvation on the video which said nothing of the cross, sin,repenting, forgiveness yet afterwards he congratulates them on now being a child of God. In his 40 days of Community book, I wrote the KJV verses next to his Message verses on pgs.56,72,80,88,26 for a start. The changes have a pattern if you do the whole book. Several have the opposite meaning of the truth. The salvation prayer in quotes on pg26 compare to Acts 20:21, 3:19, Matt.4:17 etc.
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- Watch the Width of the Brush
| Posted On: 12/07/07 06:28:47 PM | | Age 51, CA |
Let me preface my remarks with two foundational statements: 1) I appreciate all the good that Rick Warren has done to stimulate growth in many declining churches; 2) I am increasingly disappointed with the "social shift" in Rick Warren's ministry. Why should #2 be any concern of mine? Because I've used Rick's materials in my church and I can easily be "guilty by association" in regard to the left turn Saddleback's ministry seems to have taken. So many "mega-pastors" implode when they distance themselves from honest criticism. This year has seen a number of such crashes--for example Haggard and Hagee to name just two. However, it is too broad a brush stroke (in my opinion) to say that if there has been a shift in Rick Warren's theology and methodology -- and I think there is reason to suspect there has been -- that this necessarily means everything he has ever done has been biblically unsound. I think that brush stroke is far too broad. I think that high profile people like Warren deserve all the scrutiny they get, but I don't think we should "through the proverbial baby out with the bath water."
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- The Purpose Driven Life--Rick Warren
| Posted On: 12/07/07 02:17:11 PM | | Age 61, MO |
The answers to your question can be found here: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/1-purpose.htm
The basic objection to the book, and the theology in general is: Should we be purpose driven or Spirit led? All a Christian should be doing is surrendering and trusting Jesus, because He has already done all the work. A discussion of sin and repentance is markedly lacking in the book. George Cancilla
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Rick Warren Dissent
| Posted On: 12/07/07 08:35:08 AM |
Age 37, GA |
As I sat reading this "dissent" regarding Rick Warren I was curious about several things regarding the author of this article. One, how do you know the state of Rick Warren's emotions? These were heavy claims stating that he wants the entire world to bow low before his Purpose-Driven altar. I kept reading waiting to see factual data to back up your claims. I don't think one email is enough to substantiate an entire argument on.
I also thought that it was shameful to tear down a man in this way. You called him "the golden boy" and "darling of Rupert Murdoch" and that he is schmoozing others, as well as stating that he is disregarding God.
I have tried to openly look for the logic in your argument, tried to find the facts that support your suppositions, but all I am left with is a nauseating feeling that your are spewing opinion without highlighting the facts.
I took large exception to your comment that if anyone sent emails stating that you "slander" him, that they are lacking courage or the ability to see truth. The Bible says that we ALL see through a glass darkly. That includes both you and I.
I am not stating that I agree with Rick Warren's methods, but rather that you state much opinion which overshadows the few facts that you included. I, as a reader,am concerned that due to such strong opinion, that you may not be representing the whole story. You continually tell me what HE believes, not what YOU perceive to be his belief. Subtle difference, but it makes a huge difference in the response to your writings. I would suggest that perhaps you really don't know what he believes.
May I submit that you try to leave your strong opinion out of your writings and allow the facts to speak for themselves. I found I was put off by your opinions, especially since they seem so scathing. When representing Christ, I believe we can love those who have stumbled, for haven't we all? Is my sin or your sin any less than what you present as Rick Warren's? I think that you can humbly allow the reader to assimilate facts without annihalating the character of a fellow brother in Christ. I believe we can humbly present where he may be deceived and to warn others to look deeper in to his actions without the ugliness that I noticed you presented.
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Homosexuals?
| Posted On: 12/07/07 07:58:11 AM |
Age 26, NC |
Mr. Cancilla,
I don't think the Bible teaches that Christians are not to associate with homosexuals. The Bible verse you quoted is talking about false teachers who have a form of godliness, but they truly just love themselves.
Having an ex-homosexual in my family I can tell you that Christians do not need to rebuke homosexuals. They know it is wrong and they specifically go out of their way to avoid family and friends who are Christians. Instead of rebuking, they need lots of prayers and tears. I am not saying we should run around telling all homosexuals "God loves you!" because that gives them the false impression that God approves of what they are doing. Rather we are to show them the love of God, by seeking them out and trying to spend time with them. We should never be afraid to tell them what we think of their sin (as the Holy Spirit leads you to), but just like any other sinner, we have to live Jesus Christ out in front of them. And Praise God! My family member is now a Christian and fleeing from that immoral lifestyle.
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- Disassociation
| Posted On: 12/07/07 05:46:44 PM | | Age 88435, NM |
You are correct that the Bible does not teach that Christians should not associate with homosexuals...unless they consider themselves Christians. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul addresses sexual sin in the church and verses 9-11 makes it very clear: "When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to do that. What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people."
But we all need to read that whole chapter to make sure we understand why we are doing this. It is to bring them to a place where they miss the fellowship they once had, repent of there sin, and can then be restored to fellowship.
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Rick Warren
| Posted On: 12/07/07 07:55:29 AM |
Age 40, IL |
Amen, Ingrid. I have long mistrusted Mr. Warren, as he is nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is misusing the Word of God for his own ends. May he listen to all who have tried to knock some Biblical sense into him, instead of retreating into his own pride and rebellion. "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1
May Rick Warren repent and listen to sound, Biblical doctrine and the reasoning of those that would turn his foolish heart back to the real Word of God.
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Bible does NOT endorse greying/blurring
| Posted On: 12/07/07 07:27:20 AM |
Age 44, DC |
There are many places (just about ENTIRE book of Deuteronomy for example) where God lays out very specific, diametrically-opposed choices--with instruction on which one is correct.
"I set before you life and death, blessings and curses--CHOOSE LIFE!"
Warren's idea seems to be (like my left-coast-dwelling, completely-unconverted--as in not even nominally Christian--sister) of viewing everything as shades of grey, even when the situation is clearly black-and-white.
On AIDS and VD issues--it would be obvious that the idea of a condom for "safe sex" is like putting a seatbelt on a motorcycle and telling the rider "you can ride as wildly as you want now, so long as you are have the seatbelt fastened" (admittedly, the analogy sounds moronic, but that doesn't invalidate it).
As George Cancilla of Missouri stated--Warren is a completely false teacher.
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Ethics on condoms isn't as simple as that
| Posted On: 12/07/07 06:12:56 AM |
Age 30, IRELAND |
Ingrid, you ask "if you are abstinent, why would you need a condom?" If you have made the choice to wait and remain faithful to one partner for life you may still need a condom in your marriage relationship. There are millions of African women who have made this choice but sadly their husbands have not. They are now infected with HIV and the advice they were given in their youth, in may cases from their churches, to "just wait until your married" has proved inadequate to protect their sexual health. If you could meet with these women would you tell them to use condoms or continue to tell them that their choice to wait until they are married was sufficient? If you could meet with their husbands and if they had refused your call to repent from their adultery/fornication could you walk away from them without offering condoms to protect both themselves, their innocent wives and potentially any future children they might have?
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