Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 11:26:05 AM |
Age 42, NE |
Heretic: These were simple questions about Jesus' very words and they were denied and disagreed with (see Galatians 1:6-9)!
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 11:21:32 AM |
Age 54, ENGLAND |
Wow. The interview raises many questions! Your questioning of DP was rather reminiscent of Bill O'Reilley's pugilism on FOX or John Calvin at the interrogation and trial of Servetus; or even the Pharisees questioning Jesus. For that you are in error but DP is both in error and so far away from the teaching of the historic Biblical Christian Orthodoxy as to make me ask the question "Is he simply untutored in Christian Theology and the Bible?" His theology is verging on Gnosticism and he adheres to the teaching of the Jehova's Witnesses regarding both annihilation and the restoration of the earth / creation. He appears to be almost a Universalist which teaching negates the necessity of preaching the Gospel. He also denies the additional and separate judgment of the Church from the mass of mankind. Simply put, if there were no hell then Jesus would not have warned of it.
Notably He seems to have warned religious people about it.... the verse you quoted from Matthew 7 is a terrifying warning to nominal Christians! However it is not a warning to unsaved unbelievers or those of other faiths. Having known and spent much time with Muslims, mainly educated ones, there are clearly those who fear God (but do not know Him - for how could they?) and who are well aware of their own need for salvation and there are Muslims as there are Christians and men of all faiths for whom religion is a rote method of self sanctification. I believe there will be people in heaven you would not allow in and people excluded who you would have expected to be there. That is why it is for God to judge because He judges according to the heart and quite simply, we can't. As so much of what purports to be the gospel of Jesus Christ is today so vastly different from His message it is unsurprising that people reject what they perceive to be the gospel. Surely the answer to your zealous quest of outing this suspect heretic (admittedly he holds very unorthodox beliefs) should not be compromised by a seeming fixation with judging Muslims or our attitude to them. The gospel is for ALL men and for us to preach it to them - but we stray into God's area of Authority by suggesting "what ifs" regarding the salvation of imagined others. Although there is a close to zero chance of DP speaking at a Muslim funeral, why should not he offer the gospel to a congregation of Muslims were God to present such an unusual opportunity? Finally all answers must revert to "What saith the Scripture?" Scripture clearly teaches there is a place for torment in a fire which is never quenched. Mark 9: 42-44 Some Pharisees will be there and the list of those excluded from Heaven is written in Revelation. But how do you deal with the fact that you can't judge the heart of a man and yet you expect DP to do so? At least he has the grace to avoid answering such questions.
Matthew 25: 31-46 should silence those who deny hell as it confirms that hell is a place of everlasting torment. But we might ask ourselves if there will be folks in Heaven who we would not allow in as they are not card carrying Christians. I think there will be. 1 Samuel 16 v 7(b)for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. I suspect Doug has read a number of books along the lines of Fudge's The Fire That Consumes.
http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html
and he certainly strays towards Universalism.
but equally a strong apologetic for the idea of hell as eternal torment is dealt with by W G T Shedd in his Doctrine fo Endless Punishment and in articles such as this below:
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html
Pagitt is wrong in some areas but he should make all of us re-assess the Doctrinal implications of Jesus teachings on both hell and on love. If a man really believes souls will be in endless screaming torment, why are more not then preaching the gospel with greater urgency and with flowing tears? The debate is an old one. Let us be gracious to those who disagree and firm with those who are teaching error. Were Pagitt graded in Theology 101 I am afraid he would get a D at best.
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 11:13:40 AM |
Age 60, NY |
heretic
Doug Pagitt will find out what Judgment and Hell are all about when he dies.
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- Re: Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/27/07 12:26:47 PM | | Age 41, TX |
The seeming arrogance here grieves me greatly. In a 15 minute question and answer session we decide that someone is going to hell? It's one thing to say what sends someone to heaven or hell but quite another to "determine" that someone is going to hell. And a Q&A session doesn't reveal all of what someone thinks. Questions are often slanted. If I ask, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" ... there's not a good way to answer that. I'm ok with disagreeing with people ... but this kind of vitriolic speech grieves me. Non-believers often accuse us of being hate mongers ... and my fear is that they're right.
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 11:10:44 AM |
Age 24, NV |
Heretic
Denier of the revealed truth in scripture, and specifically of palpable truths like heaven and hell.
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 11:09:35 AM |
Age 19, CA |
Insufficient proof to tell one way or the other. In order for your conversation to be effective, you guys need to define your terms and speak with love without jumping to conclusions. Otherwise you have two people effectually speaking different languages with different words meaning different things, so of course you'll sound absurd to the other guy.
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 10:47:08 AM |
Age 37, AZ |
What are the five solas? I've never heard that term.
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 10:45:22 AM |
Age 58, CA |
Heretic - yes! The gospel message is nowhere to be found in his doctrine or in his muddled explanation of God's judgement. I listened to the entire conversation with Todd, and also checked out the Solomon's Porch website, and I could find no gospel there either! According to the website they consider the Bible to be a non-fictional history book!
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 10:26:10 AM |
Age 39, VA |
NOTHING SHORT OF HERESY. NO MENTION OF THE NEED FOR FORGIVENESS.TOTALLY MAN,ME,SELF CENTERED.ABOUT AS CLEAR AS MUD! 2 TIMOTHY 3:5 & 3:7.HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF:FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.
EVER LEARNING, AND NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
YOU CAN POST MY NAME...THANX!
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 10:22:55 AM |
Age 49, IN |
Heretic
From what I heard: Doug is eschewing God's righteousness (which is uncomfortable to people in their sin) and embracing "b: an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the Truth (capitalization mine) which is heresy (as defined by Merriam-Webster); because he thinks the god he's created is better than our righteous God. We will pray for his eyes to be opened to the Truth and his heart to respond.
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Re: Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not?
| Posted On: 10/25/07 09:51:50 AM |
Age 38, VA |
Yes it is heresy....listening to that makes your head hurt....WOW...I pray he repents...
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