Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 10/21/07 12:05:18 PM |
Age 03, MD |
Your argument against the "candy-coated gospel" amounts to a classic 'strawman.' You set up a false premise then knock it down. Of course God is not a "powerless lover" but He is a lover (John 3:16, Song of Solomon, etc). Of course He's not on bended knee "begging" us to be saved, but He is on bended knee washing our feet, as one not to be served but as one who serves, lest we can have "no part of Him" In fact, the parable of the prodigal son depicts God exactly in that way, going out to meet his son. The scripture says that no one can come unto Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44). This kind of language in the Bible shows the gracious hand of God in the salvation of his children. For the son of man came "to seek and to save that which was lost."
If Arminianism is as you describe it, then it is a false doctrine. John chapter 1 clearly states that we who believe were born "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God." Let us coat the good news in as much candy as possible, let it be like milk and honey under our tongues.
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Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/01/07 03:48:59 PM |
Age 23, AR |
I am disappointed in the article. Charles H. Spurgeon told it how it is. You cannot sugar coat the truth by saying it in a "Cool and attractive" way that OMITS the truth. I understand that it may sound harsh and offensive. But, to the sinner, everything about the gospel will out offensive because they don't want to hear that the sin that they enjoy is wrong or that they are going to hell for their transgressions. This of course is difficult to share with someone who is set in his or her ways. But I tell you now, if it was not for someone telling me that I was not saved (even though I thought I was) and that my sins were separating me from God, I would still be on the path to hell today. I truly came to the cross and accepted Jesus as my personal Savior and I turned away from my sins when I heard the reason for the cross. The harsh reality of my sins opened my eyes and I realized how bad I needed Jesus. If it were not for the person who had the courage and the wisdom to tell me about my sins and where I was headed, I would not be an evangelical Christian today. I just wanted you to understand that if you told someone that Jesus loves them they are going to say "Ok, great." They will not realize why Jesus loves them or why He came to save them. It is very important to tell the sinner why they are in need of the Savior. But it is the way in, which you say it. You are not to go to anyone and just say "Hey your going to hell! You better ask Jesus to save you." That would not be affective and it would cause problems with them rejecting Jesus all together. But do not leave out the fact that the sinner is on the path to hell but that God loved them so much that He sent his Son Jesus to saved them from a terrible wrath and Jesus loved them enough to suffer and die on the cross for them so that they do not have to go to hell as long as they accept Jesus, believe God in everyway and practice what the bible says such as following the 10 commandments and loving your neighbor as Jesus has loved us. This must be told. Telling someone that God loved them is not enough. People do not understand what that means. You must tell them what they have done and what God did to save and forgive them. And that denying Jesus will only send them to hell. But that they have free will to choose life or death.
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Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 08/31/07 11:13:08 AM |
Age 42, FL |
Please Mr. Camp show me where in the Bible it says "that they have to hate their own lives, their father, mother, brother, sister, son and daughter" to take up their cross and follow the Lord? I agree with much of your article but there are a few parts I have trouble with. And I DEFINETLY DON"T AGREE with the above statement. Could someone please explain that one to me or are we reading different Bibles...
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 10/21/07 12:16:46 PM | | Age 39, MD |
There's a big difference between a "disciple," a disciplined student, and a born again babe in Christ. Salvation of your dead spirit is free to all who even just believe on His name. Renewing your carnal mind, on the other hand, will cost you everything you have.
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/02/07 05:58:48 PM | | Age 52, CA |
I guess Mr. Camp isn't going to reply to you. That leaves me. I going to try and be loving because you've got to be a baby Christian if you need to be told where in the Gospels you'll find that which you "DEFINITELY DON'T AGREE with." All Bibles, expect perhaps "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" (Jehovah Witness Bible) or "The Message by Eugene Peterson" will read the same. Matthew 10:34-39 reads as follows in the New King James: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I Have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." In the English Standard Version the Gospel of Luke 12:51-53 reads as follows: Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. Judging from what you've posted, if you read your Bible you are not reading it very carefully. So if you've got a beef, it ain't with Camp, it's with the Lord Jesus Christ. Be careful! Those verses are not telling you to hate your family because you're a Christian; rather, if you are truly a born-again believer you'll soon notice a sudden attitude switch in your family dynamic. Again, the fact that you needed to be "shown" these passages of Scripture causes me to believe that your church fellowship is weak. Best look for a good, solid Gospel preaching Church. May the Lord Jesus richly bless you! Herb
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/01/07 10:35:00 AM | | Age 53, VA |
Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/01/07 09:14:29 AM | | Age 50, FL |
Luke 14:26, Matthew 10:37-38, Matthew 16:24
Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23-14:27
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/01/07 07:20:33 AM | | Age 33, TX |
The verse you are looking for is
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26 NAS It's a tough one, Jesus means in comparison to your love for him your affections for those listed in the verse is like hate. Matthew 10:37 is a verse that is cross referenced and it says "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;" In Jewish culture those who converted to Christianity were ostracized. They could lose everything. Hope that helps!
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Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 08/31/07 09:26:16 AM |
Age 49, TX |
I am not sure which Bible you use Campi, but the one that is the true revelation of God has a lot to say about the love of God for mankind as his MOTIVATION for the redemptive act. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Ro. 5:8; "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Jn 3:16; "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved." Eph. 2:4-5 The gospel is a message of God's abounding love for us and therefore he takes all necessary steps to bring redemption to us. Our relationship to God is not because of the legal needs of satisfaction of the holiness and justice of God, but simply because God loves us.
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/14/07 07:54:46 PM | | Age 20, NV |
God's love is His MOTIVE for saving us, blessing us, etc. First, His love for the Son in deciding to give Christ a Bride (the Church) as a love gift. And because we belong to Christ --- united to Him by the Father --- there comes forth the Father's love for us (cf. John 17:23,26) and Christ's love for us as those given to Him by the Father (cf. John 13:1, John 15:9).
God's PURPOSE is to manifest His own glory and draw us to worship Him. A big problem is that today we don't understand the difference between God's motive and His purpose/goal/end. Going too far in one direction leads to humanism. Going too far in the other leads us to present God as some machine who doesn’t even really love us. Neither of these is the correct path. God's motive is the groundwork, the reason He does things. In the case of saving us, adopting us, blessing us, His motive is love.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:4-5, KJV
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:4-6, KJV
That's what motivated Him to do it: God is love. And the end, or the goal, of salvation is to display God's glory and bring us to worship Him. In fact, that's God's goal for everything in creation.
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:6, KJV
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:7, KJV
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:36, KJV
God is the ultimate source, ultimate means and ultimate end of all things. But even though God is His own last end, that does not negate His love for us. Some say that God's love is a means to an end; I disagree. For example:
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 7:7-8, KJV
God's love is BECAUSE, not SO THAT. God has nothing to gain from us. He loves us because He loves us. For His name sake --- because we are His, united to His Son, He cannot act toward us with anything less than the love He has for His own Son (John 17;23), as He sees the believer in Christ. God’s love is His motive towards us in all things, and He works it in such a way that He is most glorifies, which is loving to both Him and us.
God being His own last end does not negate His limitless, passionate love for us in Christ. He loves us in a natural way now, like He loves Himself. Does God love Himself to glorify Himself? No, He glorifies Himself BECAUSE He loves Himself. And God doesn't love us because He has something to gain out of it. God has glorifies Himself in our creation and redemption, and He will be glorified for His grace throughout all eternity, yet His love to us is as natural as His love to Himself, for we are in Christ, united to God the Son, and we could be loved with nothing less than that same love, as we are one in spirit with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17). In Him, everything He has we can call our own (Romans 8:32), most importantly in that list being God Himself as our own loving Father and Bridegroom (cf. Romans 8:17).
To God alone be the glory. Amen.
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- Re: Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 10/21/07 12:13:21 PM | | Age 39, MD |
Well said. You prove that you dont have to be old to be wise. Lots of Pharisees would like to make salvation harder than it is by over-emphasizing the fear of God, which is only the beginning of wisdom.
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 09/01/07 10:39:47 AM | | Age 53, VA |
Paul the apostle was confronted with folks that objected to his "offensive" preaching. His response is found in Galatians 4:16 - "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 08/31/07 03:09:48 PM | | Age 33, TX |
Um, you do realize that the verses that you are quoting have words like perish, dead, sin and transgression in them, right? Yes they do talk about God's love but they are starkly juxtaposed with such words so that we would be greatful, amoung other things like repentant. He does have other attributes and we shouldn't shy away from them because the unsaved are in danger of death and perishing because of their sin and transgression.
A question I've been asking myself lately is: If I soft peddle the gospel and truth to others what does that indicate about who, others or myself, I love more? The answer is I love myself more. Why? Because if we were honest with ourselves it's not the gospel or Jesus we're afraid they'll reject, we're afraid they'll reject us.
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Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 08/31/07 04:56:39 AM |
Age 47, WV |
Steve,
That is so true. I just can't understand why I meet Christians who poo poo this? My own Young Adult Pastor doesn't believe it...he's all about attracting people with "felt needs" and "meeting them where they are"...
We've had many long discussions about this and to me it would see obvious but....
Anyway...thanks for your very truthful and courageous articles!
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- Re: Re: Removing the Offense of the Cross: The Ineffectualness of Candy Coated Partial Romantic Gospel Appeals
| Posted On: 10/21/07 12:19:35 PM | | Age 39, MD |
Milk is for babies. They'll choke on real food. Strong meat is for the adult sons.
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