DOCTRINE IS NOT THE ANSWER JESUS IS
| Posted On: 08/30/07 11:09:01 AM |
Age 63, OH |
You say (unchurched is a nice way of saying lost and going to hell). That is a very judgmental statement and is not correct. Here are a few of the people who would be in hell by your reasoning: Enoch, Abraham, the father of our faith, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Gideon, Elijah, Isaiah, Peter, John, James, Matthew, and Jesus Christ our savior. But you would also have to include me a lot of the years that I have been following the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham NEVER went to church, nor did Peter. For that matter our Lord Jesus did not go to the synagogue many times but choose to go where the people were. Our Lord Jesus never told us to build buildings to have meetings in one time. We are told very little about even meeting together, although meeting with other Christians is such a pleasure. It is mentioned a few times in scripture. But we are told on every page of scripture to trust our Lord Jesus to save us and to trust in nothing else. We are told not to trust in the Book but to trust in the Author of the Book. We are told not to trust in doctrines or laws but to trust in the Lawgiver. We are told not to trust in men or leaders but to trust in our Creator for all of our needs. Your article talks about a problem in the church in this nation, but it does not put forth the solution but is part of the problem. There is no solution except the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have been to so many churches that have preached everything but Jesus Christ. I WANT TO HEAR NOTHING BUT JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. Lou
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- Um...
| Posted On: 09/02/07 09:25:27 AM | | Age 19, MN |
...about the term "unchurched", I don't think he came up with that euphemism. The people he was talking about may use it...so I don't think Ray Baumann is trying to say that if one is unchurched they are not saved in a literal sense, he's simply stating their euphemism for that statement. It is not meant to be literally true any more than saying that the sun is setting is literally true.
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- Re: DOCTRINE IS NOT THE ANSWER JESUS IS
| Posted On: 08/31/07 12:13:59 AM | | Age 47, MO |
Lou: could it be that "unchurched" could also mean unredeemed? I don't think the author meant anything but that the input of the unsaved was used to determine how fellowship, worship, and "church" would operate. Kinda like asking a fish how to play baseball.
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- WAS PETER UNREDEEMED
| Posted On: 08/31/07 09:32:06 AM | | Age 63, OH |
Thank you so much for you certainly help me make my point. Peter,James, John, Andrew, Matthew were all UNCHURCHED. Are you suggesting that they were unredeemed. Unchurched and unredeemed are NOT synonyms. Unchurched means someone who does not go to church. Unredeemed means someone who has NOT given their life to the Lord Jesus Christ and been filled with His Holy Spirit. I did not come to know the Lord Jesus in a church. I know of many who do not attend church and walk with Him daily. I am preaching at a little church at the present time. But my salvation does NOT depend on my going to church. I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else to save me. Lou
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- Re: WAS PETER UNREDEEMED
| Posted On: 08/31/07 03:25:20 PM | | Age 47, MO |
You're welcome! I just don't understand straining out a gnat when the intent of the author is obvious.
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- Re: WAS PETER UNREDEEMED
| Posted On: 08/31/07 11:28:24 AM | | Age 57, TX |
Irrespective of Messrs. Webster and/or Roget, in the context of this article (and in the vernacular of the emergent church) the term "unchurched" is indeed being used as a synonym for "unredeemed, unbeliever, lost, etc." This article has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a believer chooses to attend or not to attend a church. Let's not lose track of the true purpose of this article (calling for the preaching and teaching of the whole unexpurgated gospel, instead of merely the "gospel lite" version) in an unnecessary debate over semantics.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 09:53:58 AM |
Age 34, TX |
Thank you for pointing out the fact that not all of the problems in the church today are limited to the emergent church movement. Too many columnists are pointing their fingers exclusively at the emergents, yet ignoring issues in their own churches.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 08:27:40 AM |
Age 36, CA |
Dear Ray,
You wrote: "it is a thought process or methodology of engaging the culture. I can’t remember ever meeting a pastor that affiliated the emerging church with where they stood theologically. Nowhere is there a doctrinal statement to which emerging leaders adhere. It is a way of thinking that encompasses a broad audience that many have put aside their beliefs for the common goal of reaching people."
I really appreciate the clarity of your wording. That really hits the nail right on the head. I have been assessing certain pastors to see if their teachings were emerging, but none of them teach the same things. It is clear they are "off" in their theology on one or several points, but they don't say agree with everything that, say, Brian McLaren says. So it was difficult to see them as emerging. But this article has solified some things in my mind. Emerging is clearly ambiguous (that's paradoxical like our subject). Fighting heresy is much more difficult in this case because the heresy is not a unified doctrine or set of doctrines that can be attacked with the Word, but a whole range of unbiblical teachings that some teach, others deny, and anyone can deny whenever they feel like it, like a pastor I used to have who said, "I reserve the right to disagree with myself."
Thank you for taking the time to write your article. Please stay in the truth war, brother.
Godspeed,
Ron Foster
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 07:34:29 AM |
Age 48, NC |
This is an excellent article. I've been waiting to hear from others regarding this topic. Sometimes those of us who are the "squeaky wheel" have a lone voice until others start speaking the truth. The 'repackaged church' may appear to be reaching more people, but in the end, when they find out the truth, the 'seekers' (I prefer to call the 'curious') leave or get saved, and more are leaving than getting saved. So speak the truth in your churches from the beginning rather than trying to sneak it in.
Pastor Larry Blythe
White Stone Christian Church
Waxhaw, NC defendthefaith@hotmail.com
WhiteStoneChristianChurch.org
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