Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 09/28/07 02:27:54 PM |
Age 28, IL |
It bothers me a little bit, the parroting article spawned from the emerging critics, but I wonder what are all of these critics trying to defend? Their right to have church the way they say is right? Or post accusation, explaining what they think church should and shouldn't be like. Do you know of an institional church or any church today that is modeled after the new testament church and not culture?
If what I consider as my truth regarding how a church should function is more important than the dying people next to me, the truth may not be wrong, but my heart definately is.
Unless you know the heart of the Pastors running the Emerging churches, my thoughts are that it would be hard to speak against it. I know people that will stand on their truth so much that they will slay those around them to uphold their truth that is"right for everyone". Does slaying a brother to be right accomplish anything for reaching the lost or aiding a fellow brother running his race?
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 09/06/07 06:56:06 PM |
Age 37, VA |
Thanks for the article, but it was also difficult to determine if there was a distinction being made between message and methodology. The church on which I'm on staff as student pastor is doctrinally conservative. The supremacy of Christ, the necessity of the suffering of Jesus upon the cross, his literal death and bodily resurrection, the necessary work of the Holy Spirit, and the necessity of total surrender to Christ, repentance, and faith are all bedrock to the message of our local body. Missions (both local and international) and service are preached and practiced, and God has continuously blessed this body, for which He receives all glory! As for methodology, however, we are only six years old and are very relationally-oriented, casually dressed, with contemporary worship, but never at the expense of doctrine. People are not coming to Christ in droves, but God is saving some of all ages. His Spirit is definitely moving here. Let us be careful of confusing the two or tying them in as one and the same.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 09/02/07 12:49:30 PM |
Age 38, SD |
Outstanding article! Well articulated. We just left a church that is definitely an emergent one. It hit me when my 8 yr old son complained to me that they don't read Bible stories anymore, in his Sunday School class, but watch Veggie Tales instead! The Lord used my 8 yr old son to bring me to action. I was trying to stick it out to make a difference. But in the end my family was labeled legalistic! All I did was challenge the teachings of the emerging church as watered down gospel at best bordering on heresy. We now drive 120 miles to go to a fundemenatl church where the Word is preached, unequivocally.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/31/07 03:42:32 PM |
Age 42, MD |
I totally agree with this article. The church has strayed so far from its purpose, seeking to bring in bodies as opposed to building christian maturity. The church has become so consumed with money that it has lost sight of its true purpose. We need to get back to the purpose of our existance.
Ephesians 4:11-16
11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [[b]full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of [c]unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.
15Rather, let our lives lovingly [d]express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
16For because of Him the whole body (the church, in all its various parts), closely joined and firmly knit together by the joints and ligaments with which it is supplied, when each part [with power adapted to its need] is working properly [in all its functions], grows to full maturity, building itself up in love.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 03:13:04 PM |
Age 43, CA |
Are we afraid to share the gospel in its entire form? Do we shy away from the mention of hell? The need for repentance? All because we are afraid of the response of this unpopular message? Is it really logical to believe that the true gospel is ineffective? Or have hearts hardened and become the exact description in 2 Timothy 3? I highlighted your quote above because I have a point to prove to you. You are so judgmental brother! There is no room for judgmental people here on earth, that’s God Almighty’s job. According to what you mentioned above, What kinds of persecution are you talking about it? We have pastors, missionaries, etc sitting in prisons everywhere right now, today, because of the Name of Christ. I don’t think that all emerging churches follow the same path as you mentioned. I would not judge them because of how many people attended. We need to be careful of judging pastors and others for the work they have done for God. In Mathew 7:1 says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge other, you will be judged, and with the same measure you use, it will be measure to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in someone else’s eye and pay no attention to the plan in YOU OWN EYE? If you can show me somewhere in the Bible where you can judge the teachings, actions, doctrines, as well as furitof a person's life. The bottom line is, judgement isn't your part, judgemental is God's part. Let God do his part, let you and I do our part, as long as we do it faithfully, God will reward us in heaven. I agree with you in some decree, but most of your article, I don’t agree with. I pray and hope that God will humble yourself in order to accept what pastors are doing in their churches to save souls to Jesus, but not judging them for what they do. God bless and have a blessed day
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- Re: Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 09:59:23 PM | | Age 72, OK |
Bless your heart, you need prayer and to have the light of the Holy Spirit shed on the messages in your Bible.
How are we going to discern the spirits if their is no judgment?
How are we going to be fruit inspecters if there is no judgment?
Yes, we are to judge oursleves before we attempt to go to anyone else's aid, but the author of "What Happens When the Chruch Puts Praimary Emphasis on Numbers and Not on Scriptural doctrin is exactly right. It is true - no one wants to hear the Bible preached in its entirity, they want motivational preaching that will hype their poor sinful souls.
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- Re: Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 06:10:13 PM | | Age 42, NM |
When you posted your feedback you must not have read the caution asking you not to use the verse, "Judge not lest you be judged" unless you use it correctly. You did not use it correctly.
We are CALLED by God to recognize errant teachings, sinful behavior, and the fruit of individual lives.
Jesus gave us instruction in how to correct someone in the wrong. How do we do that unless we first judge (or determine) that that are in the wrong? Paul said, "You foolish Galatians, who bewitched you?" How could he say such a thing unless he had judged that they had become foolish in their actions and beliefs? Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 5:11 - "Now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother, but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler...with such a man do not even eat." How could Paul say that, if the people were not to form a judgment about whether or not someone was a slanderer, drunkard, swindler, etc? Then Paul continues, "What business is it of mine to judge those OUTSIDE the church?" The retorical answer is "none". Then he asks, "Are you not to judge those inside?" The retorical answer is "yes" we are to judge those inside the church. Then Paul casts his JUDGMENT against the wicked man saying, "Expel the wicked man from among you." Note that he writes this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit setting an example that we are instructed to make judgments, and judgments about doctrinal teachings are the most crucial judgments to make.
Regarding doctinal issues 2 Timothy 3 lists all kinds of behaviors of those who "have a form of godliness but deny its power." He then instructs Timothy (and us) to have nothing to do with those people. How are supposed to have nothing to do with them if we can't judge that they are of the character and/or doctrines that are repudiated?
WE MUST JUDGE IF WE ARE TO OBEY THE MANDATE OF SCRIPTURE. It is impossible to obey God in these commands without making judgments about people's actions or doctrine.
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- Re: Re: Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 09/02/07 10:55:13 PM | | Age 43, CA |
My brother, it is clear in Scripture that Jesus warns us against judging others. To judge others will in fact bring the judgment of God upon ourselves. Yet, we must come to an understanding of what Jesus meant when He commissioned us not to judge. This is important because we are bothered by the fact that the Apostles, particularly Paul, you mentioned, judged the people in the church and Jesus Himself was rather candid in judging many of the religious leaders of His day. So the logical question that begs an answer is, in what sense are we to understand the command against judging if judging was not altogether avoided by our Lord? I believe that we can arrive at a comfortable resolve if we scrutinize the relevant Scriptural passages in proper context. In Matthew, Jesus tells us "Do not judge, or you too will be judged…" But we note that He does not stop there. He includes a significant detail later in the verse, “first, take the plank out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." These and other passages seem to suggest Jesus was instructing us against engaging in hypocritical judgment. In John’s Gospel, Jesus is more succinct. First He tells us what is unacceptable and then He tells us what is acceptable. "…Stop judging by mere appearances (unacceptable), and make a right judgment (acceptable)". The key consideration here is in our making a right judgment. It is not a matter of first impressions or biases or assumptions. If I say of another, "He thinks he is better than anyone else" or "She is a nasty housekeeper" or "He is not a real Christian because I seen him coming out of a bar" or "Look at the way she is dressed, what Christian would dress like that" or "All men are dogs;"or all emerging churches are no good, I am making wrong judgments and will be held accountable for it. It is only when we probe beneath appearances that we are able to make right judgments. We must consider the factors that are not evident to the human eye. Consider for example you judged a woman as being lazy because her home was untidy when you visited. What is your judgment based on? What are the facts? Was her home "cluttered" because she had unexpected guests the night before and did not have the time to clean up before you arrived? Was it a chore one of her children was assigned to perform but failed to do it? Had she been ill for a few days and things just piled up? Did you drop in unexpectedly? What defines cluttered for you? Are you judging her based on your own standard of housekeeping? What are the facts? Unless we dig beneath appearances to obtain facts, we are certain to come to wrong conclusions. And that’s exactly what is happening here with you and emerging churches. We must understand that ignorance blinds judgment. And, if we do not know the facts we make ignorant judgments and this is what Jesus warns us against. If we observe moral or spiritual shortcomings in a person, we should strive to help him/her progress toward greater faithfulness. Likewise, you should do the same with the Emerging churches! I suggest to you, that you should write to the pastor or pastors of those emerging churches you have a problem with, instead of letting everybody knows about what is going on there. Go straight to the person/pastor you have problem with. Please, do everything in love and respect. This is what Paul sought when he admonished the Galatians - "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. The use of right judgment is in short supply. And even though Jesus does not seem to renounce all judgment, it is crystal clear that He forbids hypocritical judging. He draws a sharp line between ethical/Christian appraisal and acid tongue criticism. Too often our misguided sense of superiority govern our judgments which become nothing more than crafty manipulations intended to discredit or ruin another person or exalt ourselves. As Christians, it is incumbents upon us to always focus more attention on our own imperfections than the imperfections of others. As someone said, "we are to view our own shortcomings as logs and those of others as mere specks." Have a blessed day
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 02:53:34 PM |
Age 64, WA |
Unlike the author, I have no fear in mentioning names and organizations. If the people are not informed, we will not have pointed out the stumbling block that is before them and they will continue to stumble. We then become part of the problem and not part of the solution. In reality, we have a solemn obligation to lead the blind from their twilight into the real Light.
For starters, this emerging church can be laid at the feet of Bill Hybels. His worship style is based on a survey that he took among lost people, not saved people. He asked them what they didn't like about church and then promptly removed it. Of course, that included the essentials: the Blood, the cross, heaven, hell, sins by name, hymns, etc.
The end result was a sanitized religion that focuses on culture and pop psychology. It is not the gospel at all. People may inadvertantly hear that they need to be saved but they don't know from what to what.
My biggest objection to the emphasis of this movement (an old movement with a new name) is that people are taught how to be happy and exist here on earth. In fact, we are not to be happy here because we are pilgrims in a stange land just passing through to our awaiting home. Our emphasis needs to be righteousness, Christlikeness, evangelizing and discipling. These are foreign concepts to them.
My permanent home is in the Houston area and I see churches like Lakewood, Fellowship of the Woodlands, Community of Faith, etc. They are maga churches (I actually like mega churches and belong to one)but devoid of Biblical substance. People walk out of those services feeling good about life on earth and walk right back into their worldly ways without any guilt because they are not taught values and principles. If we were to ask them about separation from sin and worldliness, they would not have a clue about we were talking.
The emerging church is merely a renamed modernism and will in time become the apostate church of the future following the footsteps of the mainline denominations. We need fewer teachers and more prophets to call the people back to the Faith.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 01:05:18 PM |
Age 52, IN |
So very well said. Thank you for such a well said article. The last paragraph said it all. The churches I have been a part of have only wanted to appeal to the masses by forsaking the gospel but at the same time wanted to wear the tee shirt that said Christian. I never thought about it before but in general, the emerging church isn't any different than most of the churches in America.
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 12:33:58 PM |
Age 62, GA |
This article is right on target. As many have said, "There is so much world in the Church, there is no Church (true believers) in the world."
Unfortunately, as II Tim. says, it is not going to get any better. However, God always has a remnant!
Dr. Larry E. Teboe
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 12:02:28 PM |
Age 74, OH |
I fully agree with you Ray. I live in an area that is full of liberal theology in most of our churchs. I have tried to get speaking engagements in many of them to speak about the persecuted church as I am an area representative for the Voice of the Martyrs. No luck. I have always said that it in not the size of the church that matters but the size of the heart within the church. Keep on speaking out.
Dale
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Re: What Happens When the Church Puts Primary Value on Attendance and Not on Discipleship and Doctrine
| Posted On: 08/30/07 11:25:27 AM |
Age 47, MO |
Ah yes, the 11th and 12th commandments; thou shalt not judge, and thou shalt be all things to all people. We sure live those to the letter, don't we? Yet, Christ came not to judge (yet) but to divide and seperate, to create absolutes that can only be rectified thru him. Paul said to become all things to all people as an admonishment to be proactive in spreadiing the gospel but we take it as an excuse for pasifism. It makes sense because our gospel is one of love, tolerance, and acceptance. After all, Christ loves us just the way we are and understands our struggles because he was a man. Friends, I wrote an article exposing these lies, email at jchristco@aol.com if interested. John
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