Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 04:29:20 PM |
Age 44, MI |
It is interesting to read the feedback to this article. The Pope merely approved a statement of reaffirmation of Vatican II. He is not trying to "start" a holy war. Reading the feedback just reveals that most Protestants do not understand the Catholic faith or the Protestant reformation and its ramifications. Protestants are shocked that the Catholic Church claims itself the "true" church and sole heir to salvation. Do not most Protestants claim the same thing excluding our Catholic brothers and sisters of salvation? Where was the true "Church" before the Protestant Reformation? Was it Catholic or something else? It's unfortunate that all Christians cannot pull together and become the True Catholic Church, like Christ intended it. There's an interesting program on catholicism this Saturday at 5:00 PM (eastern) on TBN. I hear it explains catholicism very well.
Vince
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- Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 09/12/07 09:11:16 AM | | Age 64, SC |
The truth is in the WORD OF GOD. All other beliefs are man's addition. I came out of the Catholic Church 42 years ago and no now more fully that God led me out. Catholics have no assurance of salvation when they die. The Word says you can know you have eternal life. If you have the Son, you have life, if you do not have the Son, you do not have life. Jesus Christ is eternal life - there is no other. It is not a formula or anything else, IT is JESUS. As many as received HIM to them He gave the power to become Sons of God. All false religions and cults say you are saved by works. God's Word says: For by grace are ye saved and not of yourself, it is the GIFT of GOD, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man boast. JESUS is all we need.
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- Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 11:09:13 PM | | Age 60, MI |
Your question: Where was the true "Church" before the Protestant Reformation? Was it Catholic or something else
Your answer: The true church was with the Baptists. Check out the history of the Baptists to find out the truth.
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- Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/18/07 11:50:19 AM | | Age 60, KS |
"Baptist churches were born out of the English Reformation movement of the early 1600’s. Around 1606, certain Puritan Separatists in Great Britain had withdrawn from the Church of England, protesting the civil control of that body. Some within the movement also objected to various theological ideas of the Puritan system. Hence, in about 1608 several left the Separatists and formed a new coalition. One of the leaders of this movement was John Smyth (c. 1554-1612), who went to Holland to avoid persecution."
Quoted from the Christian Courier
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- Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/17/07 06:37:19 PM | | Age 67, LA |
THE HISTOY OF THE BAPTISTS GOT STRATED IN 1603 BY JOHN ROBINSON AND JOHN SMITH. THAT'S WHAT ALL THE ENCYCLOPEDIAS HAVE IN THEM. HOWEVER, ARE THEY INTO THE TRUTH?
GOD BLESS,
FR. RICHARD DALE
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- Re: Re: Re: Baptists?
| Posted On: 07/14/07 10:45:13 AM | | Age 44, MI |
Which of the hundreds of baptist churches (e.g., Southern, Northern, General Association of Regular Baptists [is there an association of irregular baptists?], American, North American, Primitive, Free Will, Reformed, and Independant Baptist) is the true church?
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Baptists?
| Posted On: 09/12/07 09:14:43 AM | | Age 64, SC |
The church is not a denomination: Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran etc. It is believers who are the church. Believers who believe God's Word for salvation in Jesus and have received HIM into their hearts as Saviour and Lord. We are the church. The early church was not a denomination - they were people who believed Jesus was the Messiah, saviour and Lord and received HIM in their hearts to follow Him. Who were born again by receiving HIM into their lives. Stop looking for denominations and start looking to JESUS.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 03:40:14 PM |
Age 58, MI |
The posture taken by the pope has been established doctrine for at least as long as I have been on this earth and I understand as long as the Catholic Church has been on earth. Nothing new here at all. In particular what is not new is that Catholics, as with other churches believe that what they embrace is a practice and a way of life that is faithful to that life which Christ instituted in his physical life on earth. What seems to differentiate Catholics from all others is that they seem very certain their way of life is the framework instituted by Christ by which one may receive the benefit of his merciful forgiveness and therefore salvation. In other words the pope simply states that he is certain that in the eyes of God, the means to salvation that his church promotes is the means to salvation established by Christ. I wish all Christian churches spoke with that kind of authority. The pope has one has one historically indisputable fact on his side. Historically he is the successor of Peter. if one wishes to be honest about the matter, the real issue here is hurt feelings brought about as a result of pride. If someone claims certainty that they are right and we disagree, we assume that we are accused of being wrong. I wonder why we are so little offended when our absolute need for forgiveness is precisely the teaching of Christ we must accept in order to be saved.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 02:29:34 PM |
Age 43, KY |
One last thing to mention concerning the Pope and the Catholic Church:
As Christians, we are to pray for every one's deliverance, but especially our enemies. Now are the Catholics our enemies? I guess that is for you to figure out, as I can't tell you definitely they are your enemy. Nevertheless, per our High Priest, Yeshua Hammashiach, we are to love our enemies and pray for their salvation. Pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes and the wax from their ears, as well as the stones from their hearts; so that they might see and hear the truth in the Word, and have a fleshy heart put back in them, with the ways of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit written upon it, so that His ways may become their ways! And so that they can break the hold this world has put upon them through the deceit and false teachings they have received from the Roman Catholic Church. Unlike the Muslims, we won't hunt down and kill those who we feel are not worshiping or following our Savior, as they should, according to our Holy Bible, but rather we pray for their enlightenment, salvation and better relationship with the Holy Trinity! And we understand that it isn't by our strength or action that brings a person to salvation, but rather an invitation by the Father, as well as Salvation only comes through the Son, Yeshua Hammashiach! Our task is to teach and witness, not to "Call or Save".
God Bless and keep you! Mark
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- Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/18/07 02:28:21 PM | | Age 60, KS |
Please believe me when I tell you that the "Catholics" are nobody's enemy. The enemy is ignorance and stupidity, of which there is an abundance.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 01:12:28 PM |
Age 53, PA |
Dear Jan,
Benedict's imprimatur on the document you mention is no great surprise, nor is the content of the piece as you have quoted it. This is simply standard Vatican II doctrine. Until the Second Vatican Council, you and I were considered heretics by Rome. After the Council, we are recognized as "separated brethren". The Roman Catholic Church affirms that we are Christians, but believes that our churches are not fully one with the "true church". We are IN the true church by virtue of being in Christ, but we are separated from intimate fellowship with it because we do not hold to some of its apostolic teachings (most essentially the practice of the Mass as a principle means of grace unto salvation, and the apostolic authority of the Vatican).
But let's let Rome speak for itself from "The Decree on Ecumenism", November 21, 1964:
"The Church, then, God's only flock, like a standard lifted for the nations to see (cf.Is. 11:10-12), ministers the gospel of peace to all mankind (cf. Eph. 2:17-18, in conjunction with Mk. 16:15), as she makes her pilgrim way in hope of her goal, the fatherland above (cf. 1 Pet. 1:3-9). This is the sacred mystery of the unity of the Church, in Christ and through Christ, with … [t]he highest exemplar and source of this mystery [being] the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
"From her very beginnings there arose in this one and only Church of God certain rifts (cf. 1 Cor. 11:18-19, Gal. 1:6-9, 1 Jn. 2:18-19), which the apostle strongly censures as damnable (cf. 1 Cor. 1:11 ff.; 11:22). But in subsequent centuries more widespread disagreements appeared and quite large Communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—developments for which, at times, men of both sides were to blame. However, one cannot impute the sin of separation to those who at present are born into these Communities and are instilled therein with Christ’s faith. The Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are brought into a certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Undoubtedly, the differences that exist…create many and sometimes serious obstacles to full ecclesiastical communion. … Nevertheless, all those justified by faith through baptism are incorporated into Christ [The Documents of Vatican II, The America Press, 1966, p344-345.]”
I cannot speak for Benedict’s heart concerning Christian ecumenism, but there is nothing in what you quote that indicates any changes in Rome’s attitude toward its separated brethren. We are still brethren…we are still separated…we are not united fully with the “true church” (in communion with its mysteries and its order)…but individually—Christian to Christian—we are still one in the One who died to make us one. As Protestants who hold to Scripture alone for revelation concerning the true church, we cannot agree with Rome’s theological assessment, but we can (and we must) rejoice in the affirmation of our brotherhood in Christ. We can (and we must) obey the Lord’s commandment to love one another.
While despising any Roman teaching which turns the spotlight away from Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life, I believe we must humble ourselves and align ourselves in prayer with our Lord who (on the night he was betrayed) prayed for all believers everywhere: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”
He was not praying for a squeaky clean doctrinal unity (such is impossible, even in most local churches!), but a relational unity which recognizes the presence of Jesus in the heart of a fellow believer—and which manifests that presence through an active love which causes the world to believe that the Father sent the Son.
I am sincerely yours in the one true Savior,
Mark Ammerman
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 11:29:06 AM |
Age 62, NE |
Having been raised a Catholic, there was a time I believed Catholicism was God's only true church on earth. I was "born again" while still Catholic and remained "Catholic" for four years. However, one miraculous message from God straightened out the distorted perspective Catholicism promotes. While I was anguishing over my unworthiness, (to ever be with God), a perfect white cross appeared in the cloudless blue sky and God spoke these precise word's emphatically into my heart: "The only reason you will be with me is because of what I did 2,000 years ago." I knew God was not giving me a license to sin, but rather that my sin debt had been paid in full. Unfortunately, what Catholicism attempts to do is parcel out salvation and forgiveness through the sacraments, which is unsupported by scripture.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 11:15:21 AM |
Age 45, IL |
"Nothing to see here...move along"
I don't think this is anything new. The Catholic Church has always asserted its primacy throughout Christendom. Benedict XVI is simply reaffirming it. While I have not read all of Vatican II, I believe that document also asserted the Catholic Church's primacy, way back when.
Harry
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 11:11:34 AM |
Age 45, IL |
"Nothing to see here...move along..."
The Pope's declaration is nothing really new here. The Catholic Church has always asserted its primacy claims, Benedict is just re-affirming it. While I have not read all of Vatican II, I believe it also asserted the primacy of Catholicism - way back when.
Harry
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 10:52:42 AM |
Age 57, AZ |
When Jesus hung on the cross, the thief on one side said, "if you be the Son of God come down off the cross and save yourself and us. The thief on the other side said, "remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus said to him, "today you will be with me in paradise." This is simple trust that His shed blood for our sins is all that is necessary for heaven. The thief could not come down off the cross and do any good works, could not go to mass or be baptised. The thief voiced his belief in Christ's shed blood for him and that trust was all that was necessary. Thank you for addressing this issue.
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- Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 04:37:14 PM | | Age 30, MO |
People have a fundamental misunderstanding of when Christ said, "You will be with me in paradise." He was not referring to Heaven and He was not gauranteeing salvation. Trying to justify false teachings about requirements for baptism with this scripture doesn't work when you fully understand what was being said.
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- Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/13/07 11:30:26 AM | | Age 79, MO |
With all due respect, I am curious to know exactly what you think Jesus was saying when He said to the thief on the cross: "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise".
At that time paradise was where the redeemed up to that point were. Between it and the "place of torment" where the rich man was, there was a great gulf fixed.
If the words of Jesus were not assurance to the thief that he was redeemed, then what were they?
Did the theif have to be prayed out of "pergatory"? Which incidentally, there is no such place in the Bible.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 10:39:14 AM |
Age 62, TX |
We always knew in our hearts that the pope would show the true colors of the catholic cult. It is not a true church in any sense of the word so I'll not capitalize his name or his so called church. I have been amazed and appalled at the joining together with this false religion that I have seen in my life time. Some day all those who were martyred for the sake of the truth will ask us why.
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- Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 03:45:15 PM | | Age 56, MN |
amen,
thank you jan for another good article. Jan will stand up and speak truth even when she is persecuted for it.
amen to the writer, the RCC is the biggest brainwashing cult on this planet.
anyone who cant see that has NOT done their homework and needs to be ashamed of themself when they try to argue differently.
THE rcc cult comes with ANOTHER JESUS its BAAL worship and DECEIVED people are calling her christian, including BILLY GRAHAM and JAMES DOBSEN and others.
WHEN someone does that they are NOT to be trusted, they are working for the OTHER GUY( DEVIL).
anyone who calls a roman catholic a brother or sister in Christ has the devil as their daddy.
HE isnt mine, and I would never go against CHRIST by saying the rc is his child either.
PEOPLE need to remove the head from the rear and wake up.
ONE world RELIGION isnt far away, when the POPE is telling a LIE that all need to JOIN in his BAAL CULT. shame shame POPE!
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- Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/13/07 09:17:52 AM | | Age 44, MI |
I would like to know where you received your information about the Catholic Church? Have you read Catholic sources or just Protestant ones? I have been studying the Catholic church for the last few years, reading both Protestant and Catholic sources, and I have concluded that the Catholic Church has just as much a claim to being the "True" church as any of the many Protestant sects. Do I argee with all the Catholic Churc teaches? No! However, I haven't found any Protestant sects that have a perfect understanding of the Bible and totally sound theology either. It's hard for me to take the Protestant sects seriously when none of them can agree about what is truth and sound theology. At least the Catholic Church can trace its theology to the early church and can claim that it is "One". Something that the Protestant church cannot do. Vince
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 10:17:25 AM |
Age 69, OH |
This does not surprise me for the Baptist feel the only way to heaven is to be "re-born". All faiths claim to be the only true one. Maybe they are all correct ...or all wrong.
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- Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
| Posted On: 07/12/07 09:35:08 PM | | Age 79, MO |
Jesus himself said: "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
He also said: "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me".
It doesn't matter what your denomination is. Belonging to a church organization will never save you.
I happen to belong to a Baptist church, but that is not the reason I am saved and going to heaven.
I am saved because Jesus Christ died for my sin. I have confessed that I am a sinner. I have repented of those sins, and have recieved Him as my Lord and Savior.
On that basis, I am a member of the true church, which the Bible calls the Body of Christ. If you haven't done that then it doesn't matter what name is over the door of your church building. You are still in your sin and lost.
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