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Pope Starts Holy War
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 08/29/07 11:38:40 AM Age 48, MN
"Evangelicals react to such proclamations made by any faith by saying that the true church is not a building but a relationship with the living God. " Where does Catholicism say that the Church is a building? This is simply rhetoric. The Catholic Church does say that the Church has a spiritual and physical component. We don't need to deny the physical realm to create our Church. The church has to be seen. A light on a hill you know. Jan wants the Pope to say one Christian denomination is as good as another. That's not happening and is obviously not true. There are upteen thousand denominations all teaching contradictory things. Yet God tells us "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" and "those who worship God must worship in sprit and in truth". No protestant denomination can claim to contain all truth. Yet we know this fullness of truth exists. Don't tell me it's the Bible because the bible is subject to individual interpretation. That's the reason that Sola Scriptura has caused upteen thousand denominations. It's the most divisive doctrine in the history of Christianity. The docuements words are truth and if the Vatican holds to its guns they will bring everyone to the highest of all mountains. By the way I get a kick out of this claim about a one world religion. Somehow this docuement is suppposed to make Catholics, hindu's, and Muslems sing Kumbayah and form a Church that allows all their different beliefs. With all due respect that is nutty. Only the fullness of truth has the power to unite all in to the unity of faith in the Christian Church.
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  1. Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
    Posted On: 09/12/07 08:49:56 AMAge 64, SC
    You said: You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. Well, Jesus said: Your Word is Truth. The Bible is the only truth beware of man for he is not infallible. I left the Catholic Church 42 years ago when I receive Jesus as my Saviour and beganto read the Bible for myself. The Catholic church unbenown to many is the biggest CULT there is. Thank God He brought me out.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/25/07 08:19:51 AM Age 60, OH
It is my understanding that the scripture that the roman catholics use to say that peter was given the authority to start the church was when Christ said in response to peters reply to Christs question to peter of "who do you think I am" peter then said you are the christ, then Christ said "upon this rock I will build my church" meaning that he was the Christ and GOD and upon HIS being BOTH, THAT is the ROCK he will build his Church upon, NOT peter!!!!!
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  1. Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
    Posted On: 08/29/07 01:04:01 PMAge 48, MN
    First of all there isn't A scripture that we use to show that Peter had primacy over the apostles. There are many. Matt 16:18 is the one you refer to. If I was a coach and said "you are my quarterback and on this quarterback I will build my team and the lions will not prevail" would anyone in their wildest dreams think I was talking about myself as the quarterback. Nope. But there are many other passages as well. Peter is always mentioned first. He is mentioned far more than any other Apostle (190 to John at 30), he always speaks for the group, he walks on water like Christ, Christ pays his task, he takes the leadership of appointing a successor for Judas, etc. etc. It is quite clear that he was the leader of the twelve. Keys indicate succession. A study of Is 22:22-24 also points to succession. Study your bible and open you mind to what it has to say. There is much more about Peter. I've just scratched the surface.
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
      Posted On: 09/12/07 08:54:33 AMAge 64, SC
      Peter was also married. So much for the Cathlic Church telling priests they cannot marry. Peter was only a man who God filled with the Holy Spirit. It is faith is his belief that Jesus Christ is God and the Saviour that Jesus would build the church. Faith in that belief. The Catholic Church does not preach a true doctrine and Paul said if someone preaches another gospel let him be anathema. Thank God that God brought me out of the Catholic church 42 years ago into the truth of the Word.
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  2. Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
    Posted On: 08/08/07 06:25:50 PMAge 44, MI
    I believe your understanding of the biblical text is misinformed. Many biblical scholars, including some solid evangelical protestants, realize that Jesus was calling Peter "the rock"; Jesus was not refering to Peter's statement. Jesus was using a play on words that is most truly understood in the Aramaic which Jesus would have spoken. The Greek doesn't represent the Aramaic very well, and, of course, protestants rely on the Greek to verify their understanding of the text.
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
      Posted On: 09/12/07 08:57:42 AMAge 64, SC
      Man always wants to look to man and not God. Instead of looking to JESUS and faith in HIM and what He did and Who He is, they want to look to Peter (a Man) or to the pope (also a man) and also to Mary (a woman). Jesus said: "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto ME." We need to lift up Jesus not the pope, Peter or any other of the believers.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/14/07 08:13:51 AM Age 52, FL
I dare say the Catholic Church may have some competition with Islam. Is the Catholic Church going to do like they did in history? I hope not.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/13/07 09:32:08 AM Age 32, NC
Great post Jan, but it would be important to note that it is not enough for Christians to support prayer as long as it is to a monotheistic god. By calling monotheistic prayer a prayer to the "one true God" as you did in your article you are in essence condoning syncretism. For a prayer to be to the "one true God", it must be more than merely monotheistic; it must be Trinitarian and through the atonement of Christ which God Himself has made a prerequisite. This has been a disagreement of mine with Mr. Barton (someone whom I greatly respect) in the past. In complete speculation, it sounds as if Mr. Barton is at least sympathetic to the Masonic/syncretistic views of the Founding Fathers. I appreciate the "freedom of religion" provided by our country and would NOT seek to establish a Christian theocracy, but as a Christian I cannot say that religions are equal as long as they are monotheistic. I am sure (having listen to your program many times) that you would agree with my distinctions, but I felt that they needed to be expressed on this issue.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/13/07 09:25:49 AM Age 44, IN
Naturalism is the belief that nature is all there is. It denies a reality of a supernatural realm. As the late Carl Sagan so bodly stated, "The cosmos is all there is, all there ever was and all there ever will be", Sagan suffered from relying heavily on his ability to reason through the material world using scientific methodology. Our culture's adherence to naturalism is strengthened by a religiously-competing set of ideas. This competing set of ideas is in not considered religious and therefore is socially acceptable. Evolution replaces Genesis 1:1. Respect for church and religion diminished as respect for science and universities, increased. Please don't misunderstand--there is nothing inherently bad in science or the universities. But ultimate truth cannot be found through only man's ability to reason and the material world. The above is why post-modernism, the emergent church and weakening of the our culture to believe that in fact--one can know--that A is not non-A. The above is also related to the inability to progress very far in discussions regarding God's nature and will. The above is why historically reliable and credible accounts of miracles in the Bible are not received in the "Spirit" to which they were sent. They were sent in a SUPER-NATURAL Spirit--not a natural spirit. When we receive revelation through the Bible, we should receive it as though it is not natural. Catholicism allows on-going revelation through the Pope in regards to Scripture. Bible based Christians do non agree that Scripture is flawed. If the Bible isn't broken, why do others keep fixing it--instead of studying it in the Spirit to which it was revealed? Super-naturally. The issue of origins of the Cosmos is an important issue that might help God's church in the future. It is a point of agreement between Christians and Muslims. Muslims agree with Genesis 1:1, they don't agree with Darwin. God's church needs to get more strategic about where to start discussions and where to end "on-going" revisions and on-going non-supernatural revelation.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/13/07 07:07:12 AM Age 48, FL
I have not read the document to which this article refers - yet. However, I was raised in a Protestant church and have an evangelical background. I became Catholic later as an adult. I was raised with very anti-Catholic beliefs (including the belief that the Roman Catholic Church was the "whore of Babylon") - all of which I found to be totally false. It appears that this article misunderstands and misinterprets Catholic Christian beliefs and teachings. The Catholic Church accepts Christians outside the church as true Christians, but believes that these Christians are outside the fellowship of Christ's true Church - that the Church is sadly and unnecessarily fractured. The Catholic Church does not teach that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. If, for instance, you were to join the Catholic Church, the Church would accept your baptism, etc. as valid and not require you to be rebaptized at confirmation. Catholic Christians consider Protestants as true brothers and sisters in Christ. I find it very hard to believe that articles with titles such as "Pope Starts Holy War" is accomplishing the Lord's work among his People.
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  1. Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
    Posted On: 09/12/07 09:03:34 AMAge 64, SC
    Well, I was the other way around. I was brought up Catholic and found Jesus Christ through the preaching of the TRUE gospel by Billy Graham. Then I got in the Word for myself. Having now fully realized what Jesus did for me. Sorry to hear that many who have never been in the Catholic Church are falling for the false doctrine which does not coincide with the Word of God. Salvation is through JESUS alone. Don't look to man - pope, peter, mary, other saints, go to JESUS. The Catholic church is the most disguised CULT of them all - many are being deceived.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/12/07 06:15:22 PM Age 56, KS
I believe the article is true and accurate. I think the US is in for alot of future problems because of letting false gods into our country and trying to rid us of our countries true God, Jehovah. There is only one way to the Father God and that is Jesus our Lord and Savior. Entry to heaven has nothing to do with any certain church or denomination you attend or proclaim but a faith in Christ and Christ alone.If I am wrong I sure haven't found in my Bible yet!God Bless in Christ's Holy Name
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  1. Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
    Posted On: 07/13/07 05:38:02 PMAge 55, MN
    If there is only one truth, how can so many Christian communities disagree? Jesus said," remain as one, as I am one, for the evil one wishes to separate you like the chaff from the wheat". There are more than 30,000 breakaways from the first church that was instituted by Christ. How can they all teach a different truth? It is pride that separates us. Pride is what lost the garden of Eden.
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
      Posted On: 07/23/07 10:14:13 AMAge 36, TX
      "If there is only one truth, how can so many Christian communities disagree?" I would posit that every "Christian" community would agree on the major elements of the truth of the Christian faith: There is one true God who created the universe (Gen 1:1). He is sovereign over all creation (1 Tim 6:15). He redeemed His people, Israel, from Egypt (Deut 13:5). He came in the form of the man, Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:1-36), in order to save everyone...Jew and Gentile (Rom 1:16) who will believe in Him (John 3:16-18), etc. Many things beyond those foundational truths on which Christian communities disagree are the result of variations in interpretation and personal preferences in implementation: "do we have pews or chairs in the sanctuary?"; "what is the structure of leadership for our congregation?"; "do we sing classic hymns only or do we have contemporary praise and worship music?"; etc. I do not see this as an issue unless people in these communities are saying THEIR way of expressing their faith is the ONLY way to achieve salvation. God created several million species of beetles which is definitely more than the quoted 30,000 variants of the Christian faith expressed by the previous poster. Each type of beetle has their own unique characteristics and yet they are all still beetles. I don't see that variations in the expression of our Christian faith somehow make any one group of us less than Christian. If the previous poster's suggestion was that the Holy Roman Catholic Church of today is the church that Jesus instituted I would respectfully but strongly disagree. Here is a good website that outlines several of the errors that have crept into the Catholic Church over time that have taken it away from the original path that Jesus left with his disciples: http://www.carm.org/catholic.htm . I would also suggest that the Protestants do not have it all figured out either. The word we translate as "church" in English comes from the Greek word "ecclesia" in the New Testament. Ecclesia means "the assembly" or "called-out ones". For those familiar with the Strong's numbering system it is Strong’s #1577. That is the same word used in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) in Deuteronomy 9:10: "The LORD gave me the two tablets of stone written by the finger of God; and on them were all the words which the LORD had spoken with you at the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the ASSEMBLY." The word ASSEMBLY there could equally be translated as CHURCH. It means the same thing. God desires that none (Jew or Gentile) should perish but all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Jesus never tought anyone to "get their heart right with Him" or to say "the sinners prayer" but He said "repent" (Matt 3:2, Matt 4:17, Mark 1:15) and he gave the message of repentance to his disciples (Mark 6:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, etc). What are we commanded to repent (turn away) from? Sin! What is sin? Transgression of the Law (lawlessness) spoke of in 1 John 3:4. May we all repent from the sin in our lives and walk in the ways of our Lord and Savior Jesus. "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" Micah 6:8
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    2. Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
      Posted On: 07/14/07 06:22:34 PMAge 50, AUSTRALIA
      Unity is not sameness The body-used as a type of the church- has varying body systems. Each system is differentiated to accomplish its given purpose. If you put tissue from the liver into the heart, it would be rejected as foreign. However, functioning where it should and how it should that same liver tissue accomplishes a purpose for the good of the entire body- with no rejection to the overall body function. The differences are actually God's way of keeping us under the control of the Head...not our own idea of how the church should look.
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      1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Pope Starts Holy War
        Posted On: 08/29/07 03:35:07 PMAge 48, MN
        Christian relaitivism is what your post is. Relativism is wrong no matter what form it comes under. Denominations didn't start sprouting up all over until Martin Luther, with no biblical support declared "SOLA SCRIPTURA". By the end of his life there were over 240 denominations when in the beginning there was only a few. Today, some say there are 30,000. One only need look in a phone book to know there is alot. These divisions are not of God. 1 Cor tells us that many times. A house divided cannot stand we are also told. Christ said "on this rock I will build my Church" not Churches. He built a church that is "the pillar and support of the truth (1 Tim 3:15)". That is the one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church. The only one that has stood the test of time for 2000 years, not changing it's doctrines to fit the whims of man.
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Not the end of Ecumenicalism; that's what this is. . .
Posted On: 07/12/07 06:03:14 PM Age 39, MO
Agree with the prior comment that there’s really nothing new here. The document in question is a response to questions raised in the wake of other clarifications and so on to Vatican II back in 1962-65. What was declared in Vatican II (on which I am also no expert) has been debated, interpreted variously, and so on ever since. Which is also nothing new – theology is always debated. Having said that, it’s important in fairness to point out that CURRENT Catholic doctrine, whatever it may have been in centuries past, does NOT deny salvation to non-Catholics. The actual text of the “Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine On The Church” makes this clear: “separated churches and communities. . . are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact, the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation. . . .” (from response to the Third Question) On the other hand, Catholic doctrine DOES say that non-Catholic churches aren’t really the Church of God. God does work in them for salvation, but He does so with elements of the grace and truth that belong to the one true church, which is the Catholic Church. Thus all that is good and true in a non-catholic church is really catholic in and of itself, and should properly be [re]united visibly (and presumably formally) with the Catholic Church in actual fact. (Which looks like Catholic ecumenicalism to me; so I don’t think that has ended by virtue of this document.) So Catholic doctrine is not denying salvation to Protestants, but saying “you really ought to be over here; this is the Church as it should be”. Allowing for partial truth doesn’t completely denigrate non-Catholic churches, but at the same time, saying that partial truth equals partial catholic truth allows for reunification without “compromise”. (i.e. “We’re really uniting with our own; they just didn’t know it before”) I’m Baptist, and I naturally think he, and they, are wrong, but more so in focus and application rather than principle. The one true church is not the Catholic Church, it is the church “invisible”, consisting of true believers/the truly redeemed out of whatever physical church they may be part of. But the basic principle of God working in any church (including the Catholic church), and thus salvation of individuals within any church, without validating the church structure itself, is valid, as is the idea of proper and eventual union of those individuals as believers and members of the true church. That’s not the problem with ecumenicalism; the problem is when you try to mash or blend together the “visible” churches into one, ignoring rather than resolving the very real doctrinal difficulties, and mistaking the formal structure of the church for the spiritual reality of it. That won’t work, at least not while retaining anything of the Spirit of God in the result. Take God out of it, and it works pretty well, as evidenced by a whole lot of what we see going on around us today.
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  1. Re: Not the end of Ecumenicalism; that's what this is. . .
    Posted On: 10/11/07 05:03:34 PMAge 48, PARAGUAY
    WELL SAID!!! these documents from Vatican (incl. Dominus Iesus which is behind this latest one) do lend to confusion... but clearly have their agenda - to return to the "true fold" which I can't agree with, as Rome preaches (I believe) a different gospel with so much additions that the original is very blurred. True sheep and goats, wheat and tares, will be separated on the Last Day; make sure you are with the sheep of the Lord Jesus! I believe the ecumenical movement was hijacked a long time ago and it's now more universalist than ever!
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/12/07 05:55:48 PM Age 47, CA
You Mrs. Merkel, and all of your neocon-christian friends can take your place beside the Pope and all the other false teachers as you continue to preach the false gospel of bombs & bullets.
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Re: Pope Starts Holy War
Posted On: 07/12/07 04:37:32 PM Age 55, NJ
The pope is just saying what he is expected to say, but I was concerned about the attitude toward the'emergent' Church. I've been to baptisms and everyone had their clothes on and the teaching about the 'Lord's supper' being a party is from the earliest descriptions in the Christian church. At one time it was described as an agape love feast. Just a dinner where Christians celebrated their Savior. The dark attitude surrounding this was imposed on Christians by Constantine's church. Music, dancing, singing and lots of celebrating (not drunken revelry) belong in our churches. Come on Christians if you can celebrate the Super Bowl how much more should we be celebrating what a great thing the Lord our God has done.
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