Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/03/07 09:36:06 AM |
Age 43, MN |
I agree with the article. What we tend to forget is all of unredeemed humanity is dead in their transgressions and sin. They are “spiritual corpses” if you will.
You can take these corpses, organize them in rows, put hymnals in their hands, and even put them in areas of leadership. Guess what? They are still a corpse.
Every corpse must “die again” at an altar of repentance in order to be born again. Where there is no repentance there is NO salvation. Where the preaching of sin and the law is replaced with soothing words there is no deep conviction that brings forth this type of second death (repentance.)
God is not manipulated through light shows and well orchestrated programs, only man is. Flashy presentations choreographed dancing and well orated messages will keep our interest in the “things of God.” But what the Lord desires are hungry and broken vessels craving to touch the hem of His garment. This inner gut wrenching drive for
God can not birthed through the stimulation of our five senses. Deep calls unto deep…PERIOD!. The Spirit of the Father draws sinners to repentance, not our cleverness, talents and light shows. There are many Lazarus’ (corpse) sitting on our pews every Sunday. They need to hear the voice of the Father calling them out of their “death.” Otherwise we are just entertaining corpses.
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/03/07 07:59:04 AM |
Age 51, TX |
This is a concise look at some of the popular pragmatic methods used in far too churches. The question I am prayerfully pondering is this: How does a concerned saint weigh these type issues in deciding whether to leave his church or continue to bang his head against the wall of worldly pragmatism?
The three issues I've identified to my elders at my church are:
Managerial Control in the way decisions are made and implemented.
Product Marketing: worldly considerations in how the church is presented to worldlings.
Brand Management: emphasizing uniformity across the entity instead of unity in the body.
All of which go unanswered and unaated. With sound preaching Sunday morning, to boot.
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/03/07 06:30:14 AM |
Age 35, OH |
I'm a church planter in one of the fastest growing areas of Ohio. Reading your article reminded me of everything I had been taught to grow a church. I struggle daily with how to get the message of the Gospel out without selling out to some type of marketed church where everyone is coming to be entertained. I agree that if you attract them with entertainment, you have to keep upping the ante on the entertainment level. I was in a church like this once and it is not fun having to top last week's show this week.
On the other hand, I wish you would have moved beyond the negative and stated something positive. You even acknowledged that this begged the question what would God's top ten ways to grow a church look like. I'm struggling with all my might to figure that one out - in a 21st century context. I have people in my church who gave up on the church, who are mad at God, and who aren't sure what they think about God. They've told me that Terra Nova (the church I pastor) is their last attempt at connecting with God. I want to help the 1000's of people in my community who are saying the same thing but haven't heard of the church yet. How do I get the word out without falling into the trap you demonstrated?
I would love to hear your thoughts!
Click here to reply to this post
|
- PREACH JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED
| Posted On: 07/05/07 02:14:05 PM | | Age 63, OH |
Paul answered your question very well I thought: 1 - Preach nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. There is not one book of the Bible that does not have Jesus Christ and Him crucified as it's message. Even the Book of Esther. If you can not see Jesus Christ crucified in any part of the Bible ask God and He will show you for He gives wisdom to those who ask. 2 - Jesus told us that the sons of God are those who walk in the Spirit, so this takes the burden off of you and puts it onto the Holy Spirit. Your job is to leave the Holy Spirit lead and not get in His way. People want to hear from God and not men. If a man leaves God speak through him the people will flock to hear as they did Jesus Christ. 3 - Jesus gives us a example in the 1st miracle at the wedding when He changed the water to wine. The stone jars are symbols of the clay jars that Paul say that God has put this treasure in. The water is a symbol of the water of the word or the scripture. The water becomes wine when it is poured out. The wine is the fruit of the spirit that has been crushed so the impurities can be removed by the Holy Spirit. The impurities settle to the bottom of the jar and the wine is on top. If we leave the people of God pour out this water it becomes wine. Any true Christian who has the Holy Spirit will be compelled to come to a church that he and others are constantly pouring out this water that becomes wine. For we see the Holy Spirit speaking through us and others and it is life. Paul confirms this in 1 Cor 14:26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. ALL OF THESE MUST BE DONE for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. - Notice that Paul says that these MUST be done. Any church that does not do these things will NOT be like the church of the apostles of Christ. That is why the church is so dead in this nation. Lou
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 10:10:30 AM | | Age 54, TN |
My heart aches for the young church planter seeking to reach people who are burned out, fed up, and mad at God. Where is the help that this article gives him? This article is typical of the negativity that appears on this site. It is a matter of focus. Jesus calls us to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." It is true that mere entertainment does not win people to Christ. But I wonder whether many of the "gospel concerts" that churches have are not mere entertainment as well. I am concerned about the attitude "the worship service is for God only and if unbelievers show up, well that is their business." Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 that he is concerned about how unbelievers perceive what goes on in a service. The service should minister to both the believer and the unbeliever.
I once saw an old war movie in which the sailors constantly criticized one officer, saying he cared only for ships, not for men. He finally turned on them and said, "Yes, I care about ships. Do you know why? Ships have decks, and men stand on those decks." Growth means bringing in people where they can hear the Gospel. Bring them in, and make sure that they hear the Gospel when they get there.
John Simmons
http://drjwsimmons.pbwiki.com
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 09:14:44 AM | | Age 45, CA |
Door to door brother, it was the only way given in the Bible. We are a small community and we hit the same doors several times, but this can be a good thing. It allows for development of relationships, and hopefully trust, eventually if the hearts are softened, salvation. They are supposed to be saved before they join the church according to the Bible. Just start with www.blueletterbible.org and plug in "church" in your search bar. It may not be effective according to world standards, but the model is in the Bible, we must find it there.
Click here to reply to this post
Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/03/07 05:39:13 AM |
Age 54, IL |
Great article, I think that the numbers game can be very deceptive both ways. Many times we miss the mission and vision of the local church and put too high a tag on the programs that keep people busy at things that may be good but are not directed by the headship of Jesus Christ lifting up the cross and connecting people to seek first the Kingdom of God. If we as a church are not reproducing from the pews we are dead in the water our standing order from Jesus is Mark 16:15-16 this command is to have the effect of connecting to people to connect to people for the express purpose of getting them connected to God by the preaching of the Word from the pews. If attendance is off by 10% then maybe they need to fire the congregation. In the ‘old days’ we called this revival and you would get a new voice to preach repentance and the high cost of entropy and apathy by a great show of the people (even our children) slipping into hells fire while we entertain our flesh! To the cross, again to the cross! Lose not the vision or the great price paid for our salvation! Reconnect to the first works or like Revelation 3:16 be a lukewarm spit on the road to destruction, remember the virgins that did not prepare they missed the Rapture of the bridegroom. So the question is are we about the Fathers business?
Rev. Kenneth Rhoades
www.spoken4.org
It is not a religion it is a relationship!
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/03/07 12:30:22 AM |
Age 55, NM |
Well, when you all get there on sunday, you have missed God, because you are a day late. He was waiting there for you yeaterday on His holy sabbath, but you guys were busy watching the game.
Click here to reply to this post
|
- Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 10:48:27 AM | | Age 28, TX |
That's interesting. So, do you only pray on Saturdays? It must be rough worshipping a god who isn't around six days of seven.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/05/07 09:40:09 AM | | Age 45, CA |
Do you keep ALL the Sabbaths, not just the seventh day sabbath? You know Christ died on a Wednesday (3 full days and 3 full nights in the grave) because there were two sabbaths that week? Do you keep them all? do you follow ALL the law? If you break one, you break them all. There's the food laws, the clothing laws.... keep them?
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
And finally, The sabbath was given as a day of REST. CHURCH IS NOT REST. It's lots of work, even for people just going to church let alone the workers. Under the law, every other day of the week was a day to go to the temple, sacrificing occurred all the time, The sabbath was a rest from one's labors. One was supposed to stay home and not travel, not even light a fire, food was supposed to be prepared the day before or not cooked on the Sabbath. Do you keep that? Read your Old Testament, there's a lot of very good stuff in there. Even salvation and grace.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/04/07 11:07:49 PM | | Age 55, NE |
So God is only there for one day a week? And is He only in the church building? Better review your theology.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Ten Ways To Grow a Church Without God
| Posted On: 07/04/07 04:22:43 AM | | Age 51, TX |
when you go to church on Saturday, thinking all who meet on Sunday are wrong, perhaps you will miss God - judging others on the keeping of sabbaths and days. Or perhaps you are a Jew. At any rate, Christians are not bound by the law and Sunday worship of the risen Lord is based on the tradition of the first century apostles and saints.
Here's a good, solid review of the issue:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s03.html#origin
Click here to reply to this post
|
|
|
