Kimball
| Posted On: 01/16/08 10:51:33 AM |
Age 55, FL |
Your article is of course well researched and spiritually poignant without distracting hysteria. I would humbly suggest that men like Kimball are every bit as dangerous as the others since it is his professed theology coupled with his movement within and accommodation to the emergent movement that lends credibility and offers some doctrinal "cover" to the extremes. I wonder how Kimball can actually "believe" the things he contends and still rub shoulders with heretics. Puzzling...
Just as MacLaren's windsome and humble spirit might be used as a Trojan Horse for his theology, so might Kimball's presence be used in the same manner. It is all very dangerous and the evil strategy is multi-faceted and includes some unconventional leverages such as kindness, love, and a general acceptance of everyone. Darkness travels as light.
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 06/08/07 11:54:42 PM |
Age 63, TX |
I am not an evangelical but a fundamentalist.
Liberals spoken of as evangelicals would have never happened if believers had remained comfortable with terms made derogatory by liberals such as being a conservative or fundamentalist.
Belief In A Christian God Requires Acceptance of the Three Basic Tenants of Fundamentalism: (1) Truth is singular, (2) Truth is ultimate, (3) Truth is knowable.
Truth is singular
The pivotal point about a holy, monotheistic deity who reveals himself to human kind is that by the very definition of this deity the revelation must be singular (only one truth) and exclusive of all other ideas or else there would not be any need for any revelation from the deity.
Truth is Ultimate
If you believe in a holy, monotheistic deity who reveals, it must be assumed that what is revealed is of ultimate importance or the revelation itself would not be necessary. A belief in a holy, monotheistic deity who reveals truth, requires that this truth be necessarily singular and of ultimate importance to the divine will. Even if I were to conclude that God only wanted to reveal either (1) “all will go to heaven,” or (2) “all would go to hell,” or (3) “existence ended at death,” then, for the such a God to reveal this truth, the revelation must by definition give this truth ultimate importance for the purposes of the divine will regardless of how humankind perceives it.
Truth is knowable
By definition, divine revelation contains within its presupposition that which is revealed is comprehendible by man.
Therefore, a belief in a holy, monotheistic deity who reveals requires that the faithful maintain a certain fundamentalism because there is a claim that:
(1) truth is singular (There is one truth.);
(2) that the faithful know this truth, that this truth is ultimate (It originates from God.).
(3) and its knowable (It is revealed.).
These are the three main tenants of fundamentalism, whether secular or religious, is where an idea has gained superiority in value and purpose over all else. This triangle of certainty will be destroyed if any one of the three principles is accommodated. A Christian belief system which refuses to embrace all three of these tenets by extension will end with one of these three accommodations.
First, religion may propose a holy, monotheistic deity that has not chosen to reveal, so that then, in the dogmatism of fundamentalism there is no idea (truth) to exalt. This is the most common Christian denial which takes the form of denying the authority of Scripture. Most liberal scholarship starts with the assumption that Scripture is the product of human efforts rather than divine revelation.
Second, religion might, image a monotheistic deity that is evil or amoral, thereby, what is revealed is either for destructive purposes or personal pleasure and gain. All nature worship denies the deity is essentially holy whether it is Wicca or ancient fertility goddesses.
Thirdly, religion could conceive of polytheistic deities where each idea is in competition with that of another deity. This removes a particular singular idea (truth) from being ultimate. Polytheism is on the increase today because it allows “absolute liberty” in what one may believe. Modern polytheism rises out of relativism.
Accommodations in accepting any one of these three are obviously beyond Christian beliefs. But when holiness, monotheism, and revelation are the character of the divine, then, there is this necessary dogmatism of fundamentalism along with its dangers. However, avoiding this dangers of fundamentalism are impossible because anything other than the One God who is Holy and who has revealed leaves Christians with the options of the concept of deity that is a choice between a nonexistent, an unknowable, an evil, or a pluralistic reality which are diametrically opposed to the Gospel of Jesus. old glen
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 06/04/07 01:40:50 PM |
Age 56, MN |
This is Bob DeWaay the author of the article. Someone took my statements about Dan Kimball to be an endorsement of Kimball's ministry which I did not intend them to be. There are numerous points of disagreement I have with him. I did, however, want to show that even he considered that believing certain truths might be deemed "unemerging."
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 06/02/07 11:51:19 AM |
Age 46, WI |
To my brothers and sisters in the Lord,
How come I continually see that we as believers are quick to condemn a new wine skin and not look to this to see what God is trying to tell us with this movement. The Catholic church condemned the reformation, are we now repeating that same thing with the emergent movement? As I look at this movement I see a group of believers who are searching and wanting the ability to have a discussion of the word without the condemning nature of most leaderships. IE "believe my way or the highway mentality", there is a complete lack of openness in most denominations to present or talk of any belief that doesn't line up with their denomination unless it is being condemned. This fear and the lack of servanthood,(those who would be first will be last...)will bring about another reformation to the church of today. We as Brothers and Sisters in the Lord don't know it all and our lack of admission to this has put the Lord in the position of showing this to everyone watching. This is true in the emergent movement and any other movement you look at, including witnessing. The emergent movement is now experiencing this as have other groups of believers. Are we in this to condemn people into believing our way or show the saving grace of God.
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 05/31/07 11:41:23 PM |
Age 62, TX |
Thank you for a lucid article on a religious movement that does not align with the Bible. It is a difficult subject to address, but you did an excellent job of exposing it for what it is----"another gospel." God Bless You
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 05/31/07 07:45:51 PM |
Age 31, MN |
Great article Pastor DeWaay. This is a message that more people need to hear. I also appreciated your gentle tone, while still clearly conveying the errors found in this book and within Emergent.
Blessings on you,
Jason Carlson
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 05/31/07 01:32:03 PM |
Age 37, CA |
Concise survey, well-written, great article. Thank you, Mr. DeWaay, for taking the time to thoroughly and fairly review this book and for taking the time to inform us believers in propositional truth found in the Bible.
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 05/31/07 09:24:27 AM |
Age 28, TX |
Interesting article, and very well put together!
I particularly find Mr. Friesen's statement here annoying: “Jesus did not announce ideas or call people to certain beliefs as much as he invited people to follow him into a way of being in the world.” He didn't announce ideas? Then who preached the Sermon on the Mount? Who then said, "No man cometh unto the Father but through me"? "Before Abraham was, I AM"? When He said that the Greatest Commandment is to love God with all our hearts, minds, strength, and souls, and the second greatest is to love our neighbors as ourselves (and upon these hang all the law and the prophets), was that just a friendly invite instead of being a direct ORDER? If someone's going to talk about the Bible, he ought to read it first...
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 05/31/07 09:21:59 AM |
Age 53, NJ |
Wow...Thanks for this article. I've been reading bits and pieces of other information regarding the Emergent Church and this article puts it all together. This article reminds me just how much we need to be in prayer for people in this country, who although many call themselves Christians are not in the Word daily and can be lead away easily. It is a good motivator to continue to pray for revival in the U.S. and around the world. Thanks again for your work revealing the untruths of the Emergent Church that are covered with a smooth lining to make the lie go down easier.
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Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 05/31/07 07:46:15 AM |
Age 51, NC |
I have agreed (mostly) with the content of Mr. Dewaay's articles, yet not always appreciated the tone--so I have e-mailed a brickbat or two. It is altogether appropriate then to send a bouquet. This article is on target both in content and in context--substance and spirit--both of which I think are important, but not always a balance that is easy to achieve. We should have the toughness of Jeremiah's thunder, but also the tenderness of his tears. Kudos for doing both.
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- Re: Re: Emergent Old Fashioned Liberalism
| Posted On: 06/01/07 10:56:14 AM | | Age 43, SCOTLAND |
nice one. Bob. Clear and concise. and no personal attacks. I like it!!!
I would argue that those entering ministry in the emerging culture from a liberal stream, tend to stay liberal and those from evangelicalism tend to stay evangelical. and this book represents a mixture of both.
but it would be wrong to say all of them are liberal. in fact, most would be finding a third way that avoids both liberalism and fundamentalism - as chartered by people like Lesslie Newbigin.
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