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Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 09:36:47 PM Age 30, IA
I thought this was a real good article. Simple, scriptural, and to the point. Perhaps a more fitting title would have been "Why do some pastors deliberately avoid teaching BIBLE doctrine" instead of "Their CHURCH doctrine" Many Pastors and/or elders would be alot better off if they would teach what the Bible says rather than teaching what their church constitution and bylaws state! Which are often times heretical and many times cannot be supported by the Scriptures! Often times they are nothing more than the invention and wishful thinking of man!!!
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 06:58:06 PM Age 44, PA
Because they are heirlings. These fakes don't want to scare anyone away because they need the cash to pay the rising Health care premiums. Plus if people leave he can't build that big fancy building with the basketball court for "evangelical" reasons! Church was never ment to be a one man show week after week anyway, so that's what you get.
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 02:09:55 PM Age 40, WI
Our church has an intensive catechesis program, meaning the systematic teaching of Christian doctrine, that takes place for new concerts on Thursday nights for two hours for six months. Each Sunday, the ongoing Bible teaching goes on at 9 am before the 10:00 am service and this also follows a systematic teaching of Bible doctrine. Further, our sermons and hymns are laden with doctrine, as the Reformers intended. Our children are also given three one hour sessions a week in the church school directly with the pastor who uses the materials he developed to specifically teach doctrine to the children. There is much Scripture memory that goes on and a box of 500 cards of Biblical terminology the children must know by 8th grade. I am thankful to be a part of a church that takes doctrinal teaching so seriously. Proper living flows from a proper relationship with Christ first, and a proper understanding of who God is and what Christ has done for us. It isn't a question of dead doctrine vs. a lively church, it's than no church can be truly alive without doctrinal truth from God's Word!
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  1. Time to teach and what about older people?
    Posted On: 04/16/07 09:46:39 PMAge 44, CA
    I use TWO words frequently, and most times when I was a kid other Americans could laugh and share.... BUT now other Americans get abusive: These words are similar in content and meaning to AMERICANS they are the foundation of AMERICA... and to Ilyich Ivanovich they are the scourge of his soul to the point he killed people who uttered them in his prescence! They are DEMOCRACY, and all that that implies... discussion and consent of ALL present... and secondly... THE WORD (I am sure you know that meaning I am implying and as I am educated, and a ONE time christian I need not say more)... these words share a common bond, as Red Skelton would say when he spoke of what his teachers told him about the Pledge Of Allegience. I have endured confusion and even said unkind things to other christians, after dealing with drug dealers, and traffickers, and gang members in our Parks instead of the friendly pickup games I knew as a child. Today children and adults want to WIN and DOMINATE, yet when I was a kid we exercised, and played and merely spent time together laughing and playing... Winning and Domination NEVER entereds our heads when doing activities... and we were CIVIL to each other for it, regardless of religion or education. We helped, and we did what we could... it wasn't for money nor authority or POWER. We did it because it was a form of fellowship. Iliych and MARX, and FREUD can never understand what we HAD when I was a boy, so they tend to be skeptical and enlist non-christian, Non-educated aid for their schemes. This is why TEACHING christian children when YOUNG the BIBLE cover to cover in ONE session at the same time interval would do wonders for the children when they grow up, then the newer knowledge can be taught and not conflict with the bible... It is the bible which teaches of what WAS, and WE teach what IS about the Bible that we knew as children when American communities were strong, and happy, and Fun. Let us return to those days, and forgo the encroaching Reincarnation, foresaking that incongruent idea of Jesus, that lead to the "Dark Ages" and the Reinassaince... when children were portrayed as "Christ like" which negates TRANSFIGURATION and RESSURECTION. Let our churches start EVERY sunday service with 2 hymns: 1. The Battle hymn of the Republic (Quinesential AMERICAN and christian) 2. Amazing Grace which will commemorate the Americans who have thus far given their lives for our freedom, and let us not forget to praise them AND Jesus and God, and America... even though I am educated and often adhere to humanist ideas which provide for JUDICIAL reason, as an interpretation of what we have for Jesus's sacrafice, and the commitment to NOT SHED BLOOD (ours primarily, others just as well or any ritual which would be Satanic animal wise...)FOR PERSON POWER, but for defending what is GOOD and JUST. Otherwise the Kamakazee factories which have been set up in our country will unleash a civil war... and the Men of The ARIZONA and their lesson of fortitude and strength in the face of such blood endeavor in the name of GOD, shall always prove false and in the end empty to disrupt our GOOD, and Brotherhood. Let it be so.... Amen
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  2. Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
    Posted On: 04/12/07 04:42:49 PMAge 63, OH
    You say "no church can be truly alive without doctrinal truth from God's Word!" Do you really mean what you say or have you misspoke which we all do of course. I take it by God's Word you mean the Bible by the context of your remark. Are you saying that a man who is without the Bible and falls at his knees and prays to his creator to please save him that he will perish. Or what of a man who has heard men mention Jesus, Mohamed, Budda and also heard of the books of the Bible, Koran, Mormon and does not know which is the truth. What should this man do. Should he not turn to God and ask Him. If this man believes that he has a Creator and addresses Him in prayer and asks his Creator to save him; will not his Creator save him. Is not Jesus the Creator of all. So if the man does not know his Creators Name will God send him to hell for not knowing. God tells us to seek and did not that man seek God. Will God disappoint. Will not God save anyone who turns to Him for salvation. Are you saying that Enoch was not truly alive for he had no Bible. You have a Bible; Has God taken you to heaven before you died because He could not wait to be with you. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all had no Bible and were servants of the most high were they not. Were they truly alive or have they perished. Jesus never called the Bible the Word but called them the scriptures. The Bible calls Jesus the Word. Any man who has Christ is truly alive is he not. Lou
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
      Posted On: 04/15/07 11:34:04 AMAge 28, TX
      Lou, try reading this again: "It isn't a question of dead doctrine vs. a lively church, it's than [sic] no church can be truly alive without doctrinal truth from God's Word!" If God sees fit to save a man without the use of a Bible, then that is between God and that man. HOWEVER, we must NOT diminish the absolute relevance of the Bible to the lives of those who have any access to it whatsoever. God may instruct us directly if He sees fit, but for now, He sees fit to use the written form of the Word, yes? Have you had direct revelations from Him recently--or do you get most of your doctrine from the Bible? The person who wrote the above quote, which you are taking completely out of context, was basically dispelling the notion that a church that leans on the Bible is "dead." Lou, you need to please pay attention when you leave comments, and please learn how to use reasoning rather than immediate emotional reactions.
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      1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
        Posted On: 04/16/07 05:48:41 PMAge 63, OH
        You have,it seems,misread my comment. 1st of all I said, if the man truly meant what he said, in words, that I disagree with him. Do you disagree with my right to disagree. The pharisees got their doctrinal "truth" from the scriptures but they did not consult with the Author. If they would have checked with the Author they would not have hung Him on a tree. They were looking to the scriptures and we know this because Jesus told them so. Jesus told them that the scriptures pointed to Him and they should have been looking to Jesus and not the scriptures. I do not put the scriptures down. The Bible is THE BOOK. But it is only a Book and not God. Looking to the scriptures is idolatry; for the scriptures themselves say to look to God. The scriptures say the letter of the law brings death (The Book) but the Spirit(The Author)of the law brings life. The purpose of the Book is to point us to Jesus. The purpose of a prophet is to point people to Jesus. If people look to the prophet or the writings of the prophet they are in error. They should be looking to the One who speaks through the prophet and the One who speaks through the writings of the prophet; that is The Lord Jesus Christ. Any man who has Christ has everything there is to possess and lacks not one thing. To be polite and answer your question, most of my revelation comes directly from the Holy Spirit and then He confirms, it is from Him, by using the scriptures. I have never been healed reading the scriptures but have been healed many times praying to The Lord Jesus. I spend many hours everyday in the scriptures but I do not seek guidance through the scriptures. I seek the Lord Jesus Christ in the scriptures. So you see all of my revelation comes from the Holy Spirit. Many times I have read the scriptures with the wrong approach and I got many questions and confusion. I see many groups disagree what the Lord means in the Bible. If they would seek the Author of the Book there would be no confusion. For He is able to make it clear to us. By the way; may I ask you a question. Do you know why the Lord tells us in the Bible to respect our father and our elders. We are told to respect older men not for the fact that they deserve it. But for the simple fact that they are old. There does not have to be any other reason, they do not have to have knowledge or wisdom. We are told to respect them for the simple fact that they are older. The reason for this is because the Lord of Hosts is the Ancient of Days. We are to respect God just because He is so old. Lou
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    2. Uh....
      Posted On: 04/14/07 09:53:43 PMAge 19, MN
      I believe what Wisc. 40 meant was that church cannot try and supply gummy bears to a congregation that needs green beans (I apologize ahead of time if I have mis-read them). Have a great day!!
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      1. Re: Uh....
        Posted On: 04/15/07 01:18:03 AMAge 63, OH
        I stand by my remarks. Lou
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 11:50:41 AM Age 52, VA
I agree with this article. I attend a fairly conservative church that does teach sound doctrine most of the time. But recently in our Sunday school class we had a missionary come in and speak. He talked about being involved in evangelism in Muslim countries and the converts refering to themselves as "born again Muslims." Some people tried to gloss over it and others were pretty upset. I am sure it is much safer in these countries to be a "born again Muslim" than it is to be a Christian, but I can't imagine that this would change your address in eternity or the martyrs of the Bible and throughout history were just over zealous fools who couldn't get along. I used to think that correct doctrine was not important, we can see from the mainline denominations that it is absolutely vital to church health though it could be a short term disadvantage for church growth. Remember that the mainline denominations are shrinking fast because they no longer have anything to offer. When people start to figure out that these mega-churches no longer offer any hope they will abandoned just like the huge cathedrals scattered all over Europe. That is the future of "getting along."
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 11:27:50 AM Age 45, MN
I usually don't read an article that begin with I, but was interested to see how the author defined doctrine. He states, "If we teach the Scriptures faithfully and exactly as stated, we will automatically teach good doctrine." And, "And many of those difficult passages that we are absolutely afraid to teach were written to nascent churches. Paul thought it critical to present the whole truth to these people (Acts 20:27). He did not shrink from doing this." To this I heartily agree, but this author does not follow his own definition. He states, "The apostles began churches with the intent to grow them as solidly as possible by means of a steady and meticulous interest in doctrine." This statement is problematic; the Apostles established Diaspora assemblies of believers, not churches. Historically, there were no churches during the time of the Apostles. There was the Temple in Jerusalem, synagogues, and pagan temples. In fact, new believers entering the assembly were to be taught the books of Moses in the synagogues, Acts 15:21, "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Even James teaches, For if a man comes into your synagogue with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes... (James 2:2) Why then does the Apostle James in his epistle to the Diaspora of Israel instruct regarding partiality to the wealthy in the synagogue, not the church? Next the author states (referring to 1 Timothy 3:15), "The apostles saw the church as the pillar and support of the truth. However, 1 Timothy 3:15 states, "...but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. The Apostles saw GOD as the pillar and support of the truth, just as Moses and David did, Ex 13:21, "The LORD was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night." Ps 119:142, "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Thy Law is truth." Ps 119:151, "Thou art near, O Lord, And all Thy commandments are truth." Ps 119:160, The sum of Thy Word is truth The Master confirms this, John 17:17, "Sanctify them in the truth; Your Word is truth. And, Matt. 5:17-18, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Therefore, God is the object of, "the pillar and support of the truth," not the church. This is what Paul taught, Acts 24:14, "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets." This is the foundation of Paul's doctrine, Acts 28:23, "When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening." So too with the Master, Luke 16:31, "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' " Luke 24:27, "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures." Historically then, what Scriptures did the Master possess to define His doctrine? Perhaps this should be ours too. Mat. 28:19-20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Does not the Master command to observe as He observed?
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 07:31:20 AM Age 49, PA
As a newly elected elder in a church that has only recently had a permanent pastor I struggle with the issue of the security of salvation. I am convinced from my study that the Bible teaches security but we have a significant portion of our body including some in leadership who do not believe as I do. Is this one of those doctrinal issues I should be concerned our Pastor teaches? I know his stance is aligned with mine but I would apperciate feedback myself if this is one of those issues we should aggressively teach or should we agree to disagree. I am also aware that Jim Ellif may have intentionally not spelled out which doctrines he means to avoid a death spiral into the dismal swamp of specifics from which he might not emerge. So is it Doctrine with a capital D or doctrines with a small d? As an elder responsible for implementation it is well to talk about Doctrine but implementation of teaching and shepherding almost forces us into outlining specific doctrines which are crucial. IMHO
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  1. Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
    Posted On: 05/15/07 12:19:55 PMAge 28, MD
    Of course the issue of security of salvation is foundational. Once saved always saved, or not? Both positions are not true because they are direct opposites. Teach the one that is not true and you become a false teacher. Also, the issue is someone's final salvation. Can it be forfeit? If the answer is yes, but a person backslides into a life lived in opposition to God becasue they've been taught and believe they're still secure, would you not agree that a correct understanding and correct teaching on this subject is important??? That person could be on their way to Hell, yet believe they're secure! (And yes, there are churches who teach that after you're saved, no matter what you are still saved and will always be saved. Not that they were never a Christian to begin with; they were and still are a Christian even though their life is full of willful and unrepentant sin. Carnal Christianity is the name of the teaching, and Dr. Charles Stanley promotes...I do not agree with him.)
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  2. Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
    Posted On: 04/12/07 05:11:16 PMAge 63, OH
    Did Paul put such an importance on doctrine. Did not Paul say in 1 COR 2:2 "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." If Paul said this which is true. Yes of course all truth is important for Jesus is The Truth. Is not Christ important. But we ALL see in a foggy mirror do we not. So what man or group of men are going to be the judge of what God means in any passage of scripture. Take Genesis 1: the Hebrew word translated day can mean Light, 12 hour day, 24 hour day, any period of time. Look up the English word day and you will find 10 different meanings for it. One man can read and think God is saying 24 hour earth day and another might thing God is not talking about time at all. He might think God is simply saying that there was darkness and God brought light. There was no air and God made air. There was no land for man to live on and God made land and plants. He thinks God is simply saying that God prepared a place for us. Should one man or a group of men be this man's judge and throw him out of the church. This is how we got so many denominations, and the church has almost no power. I can fellowship with either man and love him as my brother. This is not even difficult. I search the scriptures all day every day for anything that I can learn about the Nature of my Lord and Savior. But if there is some point that the Holy Spirit has taught me and not someone else that is no reason not to fellowship with him. WHY SHOULD I ARGUE ABOUT WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS LIKE ALL THE WHILE GRIEVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT I SEEK. Lou
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
      Posted On: 04/19/07 05:49:29 PMAge 30, IA
      "Did Paul put such an importance on doctrine?" Yes he did! The word doctrine(didaskalia in the greek), appears 15 times in 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus! Often times given in a very serious context. In these three short letters, Paul repeatedly tells Timothy and Titus to teach sound doctrine. Without a high emphasis and demand for sound doctrine, the church is bound to fall into error, deception, and apostasy!!!
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      1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
        Posted On: 04/20/07 04:27:50 PMAge 63, OH
        I agree that what Paul calls doctrine is important. But what so much of the church calls doctrine has become to mean majoring on disputable points. They even are willing to say that people who disagree with their disputable points are lost and going to hell. many times these points that they say are cardinal beliefs don't even agree with scripture. As long as someone is trusting the real God Almighty to save them, I am not as concerned if they call the three appearances of God the Trinity or say He is One person. As long as they believe it was God who came down and died on the cross for them and there is only One God. But if someone makes this Trinity three different persons then it seems to me that they are believing in three Gods and I would be concerned for their soul. But I am not the judge and The Lord Jesus is. So I would not want to say what their eternal fate is. Lou
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    2. Where....
      Posted On: 04/14/07 10:09:42 PMAge 19, MN
      ...are you going with this?? What do denominations have to do with this??
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  3. Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
    Posted On: 04/12/07 03:32:29 PMAge 58, MO
    This is the author of the article. Yes, I do believe this would be one of the cardinal doctrines that has much to do with the life of the believers. As an elder, it would be useful if you could engage the entire elder team in a several week study on the issue in order to come to a conclusion among yourselves. This conclusion could be written out in a clear statement and talked through with the men of the church. As a high level of unity is obtained, it could from then on be understood that this will be the way the church leaders will teach and preach. This is a very simplistic way to answer this, but I think you may be able to see some idea on how to progress to a common understanding.
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
      Posted On: 04/12/07 07:55:30 PMAge 43, IL
      Are you saying that correct doctrine is determined by a "high level of unity" among church elders? I would think we would need more to base our doctrine on than majority rule. Or did I misunderstand your point? BTW I think the article is great and hope it awaken's elders and pastor's to the need for making doctrine a priority. Fear of man plays a big role in shutting the mouths of otherwise bold follower's of truth. Susan McCurdy, 43 IL
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Thank You For Speaking Truth
Posted On: 04/12/07 06:35:53 AM Age 56, MN
How many times have we sat in church listening to the sermon and being bored to death. I don't mind listening to a pastor preach if he is going to say something that is going to stir my soul to the point of me running to scripture and checking it for truth and then apply it to me life but I am so tired of sitting there because it is "what we do on Sunday morning" listening to warm fuzzy stories. You have hit the nail on the head! Scriptural truth sets us as believers apart from the world. How can we be set apart if we do not know scriptural truth. For that matter, how can we share the Gospel of Christ if we are afraid we are going to offend someone by what God says in His word.
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  1. Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
    Posted On: 04/12/07 02:31:45 PMAge 50, IL
    I think the most important doctrinal issue is the one involving who Jesus is... He is the Son of God, God in the Flesh, Triune, One in mind, heart and Spirit with the Father. Many churches today say this but believe Jesus heart was different than the Father's... Jesus nice, compassionate, Forgiving, His Father's Hard, Demanding, bloodthirsty, judgemental... unforgiving... but Jesus said they are one... The Father God really loves us... John 3:16 "For God so loved the world the He gave His only begotten Son..." Regarding other issues of Doctrine... Here is one thought to keep in mind... "His name shall be called Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins..." Any Doctrine or thought regarding God which makes it easier for you to sin... is not from God... God hates sin and any excuse we can find not to love, serve and obey Him. Read Jim's 35 reasons not to sin... and add to the list.
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    1. Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
      Posted On: 04/12/07 05:34:18 PMAge 63, OH
      I hear this word Triune and Trinity a quite often. I have looked extensively and neither are in the Bible. It never states anywhere in the original Greek that God is three. But Jesus does say when asked what was the most important commandment; Hear O'Israel The Lord your God is One". Here is my question; if Jesus was the Creator of all there is, could He not create the word trinity or triune. If Jesus did not use the word and we claim to want to do everything that Jesus did and nothing that Jesus did not do; why do we use the word "Trinity". I can see that there are three ways that God manifests Himself. But I do not see this as three persons but One. It seems to me that the Holy Spirit says the same when in Isaiah 9:6 He calls Jesus "EVERLASTING FATHER". If we are so concerned about truth and doctrine why does not the church address this issue. I had a dear friend who was older than me and was a real student of the Bible. He used the word "Trinity" and it did not bother me. Because I knew that he thought God was one person. But I have some other friends that think it is important you address God in your prayers as Father not Jesus. They have taken this word and misunderstood that there are three Gods. God Almighty says that we will have no Savior except Him. Does that not mean that it was God Almighty that came down to earth and became a man. I know that God is omni-present so He could also still be on the throne and in this human body and everywhere in the Holy Spirit all at once and still be One. Because He is omni-present does not make Him three persons does it. Lou
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      1. Re: Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
        Posted On: 04/15/07 11:40:04 AMAge 28, TX
        Lou, I get the impression that you're a United Pentecostal or some similar type. (Not a bash against Pentecostals, being one myself, but I'm a believer in the Trinity.) I believe your position is referred to historically as "modalism"--rejected almost two thousand years ago as a heresy, IIRC.
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        1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
          Posted On: 04/16/07 06:24:50 PMAge 63, OH
          Dear Brother, I thank you for your kind response. I am not a pentecostal of any kind but I am not offended that you are. I reject the modalism doctrine completely. You say modalism was rejected as heresy. Who rejected it. Any time someone says a group speaks for God they should be aware of one thing. Groups of men have a very poor track record for speaking for God. I can only relate what the Lord has shown me. You say that anyone who follows this belief is a heretic. We are all heretics from someones point of view are we not. There are many who would say you are a heretic for believing that God talks to you and heals. I think these people are denying the power of God. I broke my hand some years ago in a act of severe stupidity. I lost my temper and tried to punch a hole in the wall. Unknown to me there was a piece of 1 inch thick plywood where I hit instead of plaster. The bone in my hand was bent so severe that it did not take a rocket scientist to see that it was broke. the Lord let me suffer the severe pain for several days for my stupidity. But then in His severe mercy He straightened the bone and healed the break and took away all swelling and pain in seconds. No one touched my hand except the Spirit of The Lord Jesus. He has healed me because of His mercy many, many times. And He has healed people who were dying in hospital beds. They just got up and started dancing with joy even though they were dying seconds before. You see the reason I know that I am not a heretic is He has given me the Seal of His guarantee. That being the Holy Spirit; and He has proven to me that The Holy Spirit lives in my heart by preforming miracles that no one could do but Him. But more than this I love the Person who I walk with and talk with. No false God could have this kind of mercy which He has shown me. Please scroll down to my reply to the other brother about the trinity. Looking to hear more from you. Lou
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          1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
            Posted On: 04/16/07 08:32:45 PMAge 30, IA
            Hey Lou! Do you mind my asking what kind of fellowship you attend, since it seems that you reject the idea that God is a trinity! The reason I ask is because the majority of organized religions teach this, so fellowshipping with such an organization would be difficult to say the least! (Amos 3:3) Thanks...
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            1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
              Posted On: 04/17/07 09:08:39 AMAge 63, OH
              Two do not have to agree on everything to walk together. If two men want to walk together they have to agree on which way they are going and that is really all. If two men want to walk to Cleveland and agree on the route to be taken then they can walk together. If two men want to walk together and want to take different routes then it is impossible for them to walk together. There is only one destination that is worthy of our efforts to endure to the end don't you agree. That destination is the Lord Jesus Christ. I want to be with Jesus don't you. We also agree on the route I would think. The Lord Jesus Christ is the way. I would think you would agree on this. I don't look for things to divide but look for reasons to make all that want to follow Jesus Christ my brother. This is the very problem in the church today. If someone disagrees on some point then everyone shuns that person. If the church was as good at following love one another as they were in thinking that two who disagree on anything can not walk together it would change the world. The church in this nation has NOT BROUGHT DELIVERANCE UNTO THE LAND. I thank you for your very kind response as I have enjoyed talking with you and want to tell you that I have brotherly love for you as I hope you do me. That is where the power is. We all tap into the power of The Holy Spirit when we love one another. Lou
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              1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
                Posted On: 04/19/07 05:40:58 PMAge 30, IA
                I'm not saying that two have to agree on EVERYTHING in order to walk together, and neither does Amos 3:3! However, I feel that those who hold two completely different views on the Godhead, cannot, and should not walk together! We are called to make disciples, and I'm afraid that it would be impossible and confusing for two who are so far apart on this issue, to be able to walk together and teach others what's in accordance with sound doctrine! 2 John 1:10 "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed!" 2 Corithians 11:4 "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might bear well with him." Galatians 1:6-9 also contain some pretty harsh words for those who preach another gospel and another Jesus contrary to what the Apostles taught regarding these issues!
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                1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank You For Speaking Truth
                  Posted On: 04/20/07 04:49:13 PMAge 63, OH
                  I agree with Paul and I believe every word of the Bible is God breathed. Not every word of the Bible is true however for sometimes the Devil speaks and sometimes man. Whatever the Lord says we can count on as being true. Paul preaches the gospel but he also says that he want to preach nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The gospel says someone should believe that God Almighty created everything that exists and He came down and became a man and died on the cross for them so that they could have life, and then trust in Jesus to save them, guide them, and let Jesus sit on the throne of their life. I can fellowship with anyone who does this. I do not say that you can or have to. The is what I believe Jesus has told me to do. One thing that I have learned is if someone has incorrect doctrine God will deal with that as sure as the sun comes up IF THEIR HEART IS RIGHT WITH GOD. The pharisees had a lot of correct doctrine but their heart was not given to God. The disciples had a lot of incorrect doctrine but gave their hearts to Jesus. God judges a man by the intentions of his heart not the beliefs of his mind. Lou
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      2. Uh...
        Posted On: 04/14/07 10:19:15 PMAge 19, MN
        the word "trinity" is from Latin, meaning "three in unity of One". Also...Jesus called God His "Father"...which kinda implies that they are two different persons, but they are also both God (three persons in one God...) since Jesus also said that, "I and the Father are One". I don't believe in three gods...and I believe in ONE GOD, but that there are three parts or persons of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...that is not contrary to Scripture.
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        1. Re: Uh...
          Posted On: 04/15/07 01:16:32 AMAge 63, OH
          The Bible does not say one place that God is a Trinity, Triune, or three persons. I made a choice to believe what the Bible said NOT tradition. Jesus said "The Lord your God is One". In Isaiah 9 the Holy Spirit calls Jesus The Everlasting Father. Jesus is the FATHER. The human body of Jesus is God's son. When Jesus said my Father is greater than me , He was talking about the fact that He became a man. A man is lower than the angels. God humbled Himself to become a man. The man part of God was less than God of course. God humbled Himself to become a man. But the God part of Jesus was the Father. There is only One God. God is omni-present He can sit on the throne in heaven while He was down here in a man's body and everywhere in the Holy Spirit. Because God is everywhere at once DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE IS THREE PERSONS. Read the Bible; the Father in the OLD test. says you will have no Savior except Me. God the Father in Genesis was the creator. But John 1 says The Word which was Jesus created everything there was. God is not the author of confusion; He does not lie. All the scriptures are exactly true. There is only one way that they all can be true. God is One person. God the Father became a man and died for us. God the Father is our Savior. Check me out on this. Sit down some weekend and read the whole Book, I have done this so can you. It means you have to spend about 16 hours a day for a long weekend(4 days). Read the whole thing with the thought in mind that can this view be true of trinity. See which view fits what God is saying better. There is no persecution for believing the same as the trinity doctrine that was started by the catholic church. But you will be persecuted for saying that God is not a trinity but One. The Bible does NOT say that Jesus started existing in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. Look what it says Jesus is the first and the last. He has always existed and there is nothing that exists that He did not create. The Bible is not contradicting itself when it says God the Father is the Creator and then Jesus is the Creator. They are the same person. Look in Philippians 2 it says that the Name of Jesus is above all Names. Is the Bible not quite right did it mean every Name except the Name of the Father. No it means just what it says Jesus is above every other Name. Yet in the gospels Jesus says the Father is greater than Him. That is because God had put Himself under the limits of a man. His human body was really a man. So His human body was not omni-present and therefore not as great. But the God part of Jesus was God. What God means when He says the Name of Jesus is above every other name is that as Jesus, God displayed His highest Nature. Lou
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          1. In regards....
            Posted On: 04/17/07 09:42:47 PMAge 19, MN
            ...I shall answer these questions. First, for IA 30, I was simply saying that Jesus did imply that God was not Unitarian. My error, of course, was that I failed to back up with the issue of the Holy Spirit and I apologize for the confusion. To answer other points from Lou, here's a link to an article on the Trinity (http://www.probe.org/theology-and-philosophy/theology---god--trinity/what-difference-does-the-trinity-make.html) and also read the final few verses in Matthew's Gospel and then think this points over. First, Jesus tells his disciples to baptize the the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And they aren't simply different names for God, because God has a whole host of names. Also, Jesus said that all power had been given to him. Well, if it had been given to Jesus, who gave it to him? The Father, a different person in the Trinity, but not a different God. Also, Jesus prayed to His Father...why? Also, Lou actually helped understand that indeed we are talking about a different concept of God here, because for awhile I thought that we were talking about simply different terms that meant the same thing and I agree with (as far as I can tell) his definition of what a person is. Also, please realize both of you that I believe in ONE GOD, not three. And I do read my Bible, Lou. And, IA 30, I also think that sarcasm tends to make it hard for people to communicate and keep channels open so to help foster healthy discussion (putting someone down tends to make people resentful and less likely to be open to changing their ways...). You have a great day!!
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            1. Re: In regards....
              Posted On: 04/18/07 01:02:54 PMAge 63, OH
              I copy and pasted the address of the site you referred me to but it said no site by that address. You said that Matt. has baptize in the Name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. You say these are not just three Names but that is only your opinion. I say that they are three Names or Natures of God. God is not only my Father but He has by His choice become my brother. What are the different personalities of the three different persons of God. Or if they are different persons how are they different. Which person of God is more merciful or which person of God is more stern. Lou
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              1. OK
                Posted On: 04/19/07 09:21:44 AMAge 19, MN
                Sorry that the link didn't work: Here's how I did it. Go to probe.org, click on theology and philosophy in the left hand side, click on "theology-God and the Trinity", and then click on the article that says, "What difference does the Trinity make?" and there's the article for you. One way I learned to better understand the Trinity is the apple. The apple has basically three parts, the skin, the flesh, and the core. If I divided the apple into those three parts, would I have now three apples? No, I would have three parts of an apple, but all are apple (not pumpkin). Now, in similarity (though by no means perfect), God is like that. You have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each is a separate person, but is part of the Trinity. Now, the big difference betweent the parallel is that God is a being, not a fruit. And, as far as Matthew's Gospel is concerned, God has a whole host of names, so why did Jesus command those particular three if they were merely names?? Plus, my argument still is in question on why Jesus said He was GIVEN authority. Who gave him that authority? And if the Holy Spirit is also not a person of the Trinity, why did Jesus leave and then come back as the Holy Spirit? This is not saying that God couldn't have done it that way, but Jesus said that he was "sending" the Holy Spirit, not that He was returning as the Holy Spirit. If you read the article, it will tie in how God can be one with three persons. Is it entirely understandable? No, but then trying to comprehend and infinite God is definitely out of our reach anyway. The question is that if it totally condradicts Scripture...and I think that God's Word indeed is indicating that God was, is, and always will be a Trinity. As far as the sarcasm issue, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to IA 30's comments to you before I was able to respond. Finally, I think I'm going to have to stop for awhile on this, because I'm a little overburdened with college work, so if you respond, please realize that I may take awhile to get back to you. Anyhow, you have a wonderful day and God Bless!!!!!!!
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                1. Re: OK
                  Posted On: 04/20/07 01:35:42 AMAge 63, OH
                  1st let us talk about your apple illustration. This is sorely lacking. The skin and the flesh and the core are all different and do not have the same essence as Jesus plainly says that they do. If you have a large glass container and we will say this is the universe. All that exists is in that container. The container has some water in it. The water is all H2O. It is all made out of the same molecules. Now some of the molecules are in liquid form, and some are in solid from, and some are in vapor form. This is really possible to have water in all three forms at once. The liquid would be how the Father appears, the solid would be how the son appears, and the invisible vapor would be the Holy Spirit. The liquid would remain on the throne, the solid would go down to earth, and the vapor would fill the whole universe. They are all the same substance. It just how the substance appears. In the solid form we can all touch and see. In the liquid form we can see but not touch because of our human limitations and even seeing would kill us. In the vapor form we can not see but we can feel and sense its presence. It is all the same water. It just appears different ways to us so we can communicate with it. The probe site used human reasoning not scripture to make its case which I thought very weak. If this was the best argument for God I would have never become a Christian. The only scripture they use makes a better argument against the trinity. If I wanted to explain your case to humans- I would say- I and the Father are two, but we are one God. If I can figure out how to explain that why did not God say this. Was He trying to confuse me - for He said - I and the father are one- period. They give one other scripture which is even more convincing to my argument.Isaiah 46:9- I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is no one like me. - This fits my case perfectly - If your case was true why did He not say - I am God and there are two others like me. We are only one God but we are three persons.- It does not take a language expert to see how to explain your case to man. Was God trying to confuse us. I brought up this scripture which you don't answer me on. Isaiah 9:6 for unto us a child is born--- and His name will be called-- Everlasting Father. How can the son be called Everlasting Father unless He is the same person. It is just as Jesus says "the Lord your God is One" there is no but He is three persons after that. There was no trinity doctrine until hundreds of years after Christ was Crucified. Lou
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                2. Sorry...
                  Posted On: 04/19/07 08:42:38 PMAge 19, MN
                  what I meant by "no means perfect" was the analogy comparison. I didn't mean that God wasn't perfect. He is perfect. Have a great day!
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                  1. Re: Sorry...
                    Posted On: 04/23/07 07:27:24 PMAge 30, IA
                    If you and Lou would like to engage in and/or view some good discussion on the trinity issue, go to www.bible-discussion.com, and scroll down to the section called "the trinity discussion". This is a good place to test our ability to defend our beliefs! There are many different defences of the Godhead presented at this site! Talk to ya later!!!
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                  2. Re: Sorry...
                    Posted On: 04/20/07 02:14:13 AMAge 63, OH
                    The rest of the story- To answer your question about why God had to come in the Holy Spirit and leave as the Son of Man. When God became a man He lived in a human body and was both God and man. The flesh was a man but the Spirit was God. He made himself a little lower than the angels to become a man. As a Man He was not omni-present. God was still omni-present for He was everywhere as the Holy Spirit while He was a Man. The disciples were seeking the flesh of God. But God can only be really intimate with us in the spirit. God could not live inside of all Christians as a fleshly Man. So He left to get the disciples to seek Him in the spirit. For you have to seek to find. When the disciples sought Jesus in the spirit, He came to them in the Holy Spirit. This way God could live inside of all Christians at once. If you look in the Bible, Paul refers to the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit of Christ several times. It does not make any difference if you call the Holy Spirit, Gods Holy Spirit, Jesus's Holy Spirit, Or The Fathers Holy Spirit. I ask you again when you get some time. Human reasoning will not convince me. Show me in the scriptures where God explains what you are saying. I have backed my argument up with scripture. The scripture needs no explanation. The Lord your God is One. I and the Father are One. I am God and there is no other.I am God and there is no one like me. For unto us a child is born and His Name will be called Wonderful Counselor,Mighty God, Everlasting Father. You see there in one sentence of scripture with no human reasoning, Jesus is called Wonderful Counselor(Holy Spirit) and Everlasting Father. If this does not say that my case is true; please tell me how could it be stated in English that my case was true. If this does not say this it is impossible to say it. I hope your studies go well. If you can not answer back on this site feel free to send me your answer at- lounewton1347@yahoo.com
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                    1. For the Record
                      Posted On: 05/09/07 09:23:50 PMAge 19, MN
                      I know that probably both Lou and IA 30 have finished and moved on, but for those who may read this in the future, I will put my response so that they know I am still a Trinitarian and that there are answers. This website (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin01.html) has an excellent article on the defense of the Trinity, and does it by looking to the Scriptures, including the original language. I will, however point out some highlights from the Old Testament that are pointed out by this group. 1: When the Bible records God saying to the Israelites, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." The Hebrew word here is 'ehad' which can be translated as "one", "alone", or "unity of parts". This is opposed to another Hebrew word for one that means, "uniqueness-only one of its kind". Second, the word "Elohim" is plural for "Eloah", but it always used with singular verbs and pronouns. God identifies Himself as "Elohim", not "Eloah" in the Hebrew. Check more on this website (if you can't find it, go to answersingensis.org and type up Trinity and they'll give you a link to this website). For all who read this and them some, have a great day, God Bless (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and, as I am learning more and more, always choose battles wisely and never doubt so that you begin to lose belief...search hard and you will find the answer. Also, pray. GOD BLESS!
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                3. Re: OK
                  Posted On: 04/19/07 12:21:09 PMAge 30, IA
                  I apologize for being overly sarcastic earlier! You claim that you do not believe in three Gods, yet you say that the ONE God is three persons, and the identity of those three persons are, God the Father, God the Son(an unscriptural reference), and God the Holy Spirit(another unscriptural reference)! You may claim not to worship three Gods, but have you heard this old saying, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, well, it's a duck!" By the definition you've given above, you do indeed believe in three seperate deity's or God's, whether you claim to or not. Why do people constantly look outside of the scriptures to explain a doctrine that was invented by men? Why must we come up with all kinds of silly illustrations to explain who God supposedly is, when all we need to do is look to Jesus! He said if you had known me, you would have known my father also! That's not a mystery like trinitarians claim. There are many verses that also teach that the Holy Ghost is the very essence of Jesus! I'm not going to list them all, but here's one that really stands out! John 14:17-18 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU."
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                  1. Re: Re: OK
                    Posted On: 04/20/07 05:50:20 PMAge 19, MN
                    Apology accepted...I'm not angry. :D God Bless and have a great day!
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                  2. QUACK QUACK
                    Posted On: 04/20/07 02:09:44 AMAge 63, OH
                    I used to drive 75 miles one way, two to three times a week to go to church. The Devil destroyed that church and it is no longer there. I then went to a local church for 7 years but the same group of men came and spoiled that church. I have been so many places looking for a church and the result is always the same. The preaching has so much error that it is not edifying. I would go for the singing if I could find a place that did not sing joyous songs about Christ like they were funeral dirges. I have a few people that I meet with from time to time, but most of my fellowship is on the internet. I pastor a internet church called the Upper Room. We have about 12 people. There are a couple of men who send out most of the articles and people read them but the responses are fewer than we would like. People call me and even stop by to tell me they like the articles but it leaves me with little fellowship with men sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, I spent the whole day in the closest fellowship with my Lord today. Just today He showed me several revelations. I thought I would never understand some of these things but He just speaks them to me when I am typing. He wrote an article through me today about why God instituted the death penalty for murder. It was such a picture of God's mercy that I was really uplifted. What church do you attend, I can not believe you stated what you did. Is there a church that this is their doctrine. I asked the Lord about these things and what I write is what He told me. lounewton1347@yahoo.com
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                    1. Re: QUACK QUACK
                      Posted On: 04/20/07 02:41:38 PMAge 30, IA
                      Hey Lou, My reply was entirely for the gentleman from MN. Not you. If you will look above, he said that I'm the one he accused of being sarcastic! And HE'S the one that said that God is three persons. God the father, God the son (an unscriptural reference) and God the Holy Ghost (another unscriptural reference)! Therefore my duck illustration was for him because, while claiming not to believe in three gods, by definition, he does! Sorry for the misunderstanding! You had said that you couldn't believe that I stated what I did! I assume that this statement is now void since you now know that I wasn't speaking to you!? If not, please explain!!!
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                      1. Re: Re: QUACK QUACK
                        Posted On: 04/22/07 02:22:31 PMAge 63, OH
                        Thank you for responding to me as I would not want you to think that I was in opposition to your response. My comment was in SUPPORT of your "if it walks like a duck" remark. The rest was just conversation to you as I feel like we have somewhat of kindred spirits. When I said I almost could not believe what you said, I was referring to your comment against the trinity doctrine or at least against the doctrine of God being three persons. I make comments like that often and almost no one agrees with me. I found the fact that you would make that comment on this website admirable. Here is something that I read the other day that I think applies to the situation and I think you will agree with.- He that begins by loving Christianity better than truth will proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all. ... Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1824) - Lou
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            2. Re: In regards....
              Posted On: 04/18/07 12:48:33 PMAge 63, OH
              I went back up to your other responses to try to understand your position better and will add to my response. 1st of all if you or me are wrong it is no reflection on God. For God is never wrong, but it would only mean you or me was wrong and that would be no big deal,right.But the Truth is a big deal so it is important to try to find out what is Truth. Here are a few important questions: 1- Show me anyplace in scripture where God says that the Father and Jesus are "different" or a word that means different. 2 - Or show me a place in scripture where it says that God is "three parts" or that God is "divided" into three parts Lou
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            3. Re: In regards....
              Posted On: 04/18/07 12:31:28 PMAge 63, OH
              Ist of all we are friends are we not. I use sarcasm to show my friend a point sometimes because it is the best way that I can think of. I will try not to use it but if I do i have no intention of putting you down as a person. I think your argument would not convince anyone but a person who already believes in the trinity. Now that you have made yourself clear you really illustrate why I do not like the term trinity. You say you believe in one God but then say they are three persons. Your view is not only not scriptural but many organized churches disagree with you. You have made a ridiculus statement - "A different person of the Trinity but not a different God". Is each person of the Trinity God. I assume you would say yes. Well they are a person and they are God, correct. So you can refer to any as a person or as God. So now you say a different person but not a different God. By your definition God is not only a mystery but he is illogical. You can explain any mystery by breaking the laws of reason. Yes He is a different person but the same God. Yes He is different but He is the same. You can not have it both ways and claim it is rational. What you have stated is irrational. I could prove any math theory by your reasoning, if it was true or not. If I had two equations that had to agree for the theory to be true it would be easy to prove a false theory true with your reasoning. If one came out X = 2 and the other came out X = 4 that would be no problem. I would say X = X or they are the same and 2 = 4 but they are also different. If you want to help me please explain how two persons can be the same yet different. But that is just reasoning, much more important , you can not back up what you say with scripture directly. You can show me scripture than explain with your reasoning how it means what you say. But show me one place in scripture where God says that He is three persons. How can following the example of Jesus be wrong. Jesus said "the Lord your God is One". How is that wrong. Why did not Jesus use the word trinity. What I want to know is which person of the Trinity is your Savior. With brotherly love and respect. By the way thank you for your very kind response. Lou
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        2. Re: Uh...
          Posted On: 04/15/07 01:10:12 AMAge 30, IA
          Please tell me how Jesus saying "My father and I are one" means THREE in unity of ONE! Wouldn't he have had to said "My father and I and the Holy Ghost are ONE in order for your trinity definition to be correct? Would you also please give your definition of the word "person" as you have used it in reference to God! Thanks...
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          1. Please....
            Posted On: 04/17/07 09:46:55 PMAge 19, MN
            scroll up to my response to Lou. Have a great day and God Bless!!
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          2. How many persons is God.
            Posted On: 04/16/07 08:18:13 PMAge 63, OH
            The word person refers to personality. Personality means the individual qualities that make one person different from another. There is no person like you. Our son is quite different from us; sometimes the difference is discerning. The Bible tells us that every person is unique. We are told that God knows the difference between all persons. The Father , Jesus , and the Holy Spirit have no difference in personality God is Only One person. When God came down from heaven and became a man then the body of Jesus was another body and Jesus was all human; but He was still all God. When God became human He made himself a little lower than the angels and was limited by His own choice. That is why Jesus had to leave and send the Holy Spirit to us. Jesus could not be everywhere at once as a human so He needed to send the Holy Spirit for then He could be with all Christians at once. Jesus is not inferior in nature. He was just limited by His human body. I do not claim to know what these limitations are; just that there would seem to be some. The main thing is that God is not three but just appears to our puny human minds to be three in the scriptures. But no place in the scriptures does He say He is three. The point of disagreement with the pharisees was they said that Jesus was not God. Jesus is just saying that He is God. The JW use the same argument that you are using to say that Jesus can not be God. Because they say He was a different person that His Father. I have a friend that uses the word Trinity and it does not bother me much because I know that He does not think God is three persons. He is referring to the three different ways that God manifest Himself to us. I have another friend thats uses the word and I feared for Him for He thought that It was important what name of God I used when I prayed to Him. I think he thought that God was three different persons. My concern was well founded for he fell away. The fact that God is One is beyond dispute to me for that is what Jesus plainly said, The Lord your God is One. Certainly the creator of the universe could have created the word trinity and used it. He did not, how could I go wrong following the example of Jesus. Lou
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            1. Re: How many persons is God.
              Posted On: 04/16/07 09:50:27 PMAge 30, IA
              Hey Lou! Actually my reply was to the 19 year old from MN. I don't see anywhere in my reply where I was making any kind of argument for a certain view of the Godhead! My reply was to point out the flawed trinitarian reasoning of the Gentleman from MN. And many of the other flaws of the trinity. Depending on how one defines trinity of course! After all, Trinitarians are hardly uniform in there views of this theory that has evolved into many different versions over the years! He used a verse that, if anything, says there are two. Not three! He says that "I and my Father are one"=three persons! I bet a preschooler would see the error in this statement! 2=3=1>Hmmmm! Many of the verses that trinitarians use to defend their doctrine, actually refute it! Such as the one he used above! Depending on which definition one uses of course! I also wanted HIS definition of person as pertaining to God to see if it lines up with the Scriptures and what they say about God! Just trying to prevoke some serious thought on this matter! Trying to get people to examine where they get their beliefs from! Some people have been educated beyond their intelligence and/or complicated beyond repair!!!
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              1. Re: Re: How many persons is God.
                Posted On: 04/17/07 09:33:46 AMAge 63, OH
                I apologize for my misunderstanding. When I read your response it did not make sense to me. I am glad you sent this to me for now it all makes sense. When I read your latest response I thought what is this a man who thinks for himself; how odd. My life is simple for I have only one person to please, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not stand against the term "trinity" but only stand FOR the fact that GOD IS ONE. I am against the idea that God is three persons. We have only one Savior. That Savior is God Almighty. It is The Everlasting Father that came down to earth to become a man and hang on a cross for our sin as Isaiah says in chapter 9:6. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Only God there is and there is no other. Jesus created everything that there is and nothing exists that Jesus did not create. Mary is NOT the mother of God as the popes declare. Mary is part of the creation of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not to worship the creation but the creator. Mary is part of the creation and Jesus is THE CREATOR. Mary was the mother of only the human body of Jesus. She was not the mother of God. The trinity doctrine has led the popes into this error. lounewton1347@yahoo.com
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Re: Why Do Some Pastors Deliberately Avoid Teaching Their Church Doctrine?
Posted On: 04/12/07 05:56:15 AM Age 47, FL
Compromise, compromise, compromise. What happens when we compromise the truth? I think the Lord's dealings with the seven churches in Revelation should concern us all. Yes, go and read it. The emphasis is repent, repent, and repent. We must not shy away and be guilty of being "lukewarm." Being lukewarm brings "spewing out" of the Lord's mouth. "I wish," the Lord said, "that you were either cold or hot, but because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth." Not a pleasant thing to envision our Lord doing, and not doing to unbelievers, he is doing it to those who call him Lord. Think about it! Then ask yourself, "Where are those churches today?" The answer you will get is that those churches no longer exist. Judgment came to those churches, will they not come to ours too? "And many will say, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy, did we not perform miracles, did we not cast out demons in your name? And the Lord replied, 'Depart from me, I never knew you.'" Wow, that hurts. Watch yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you fall from your secure position. I believe that was Paul saying those words. And the Lord always said, "WATCH."
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