Misspelling
| Posted On: 06/23/08 10:43:25 AM |
Age 45, MI |
You have misspelled the term _Calvinistic_ in the third paragraph.
But the most farfetched of claims is that the emerging/emergent seeker sensitive, ecumenical salesmen are Clavinistic--reformed in their beliefs. This constitutes nothing more than a superficial nod at the reformed faith, while the postmodern culture is the real driving force behind this movement.
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 08/17/07 12:26:06 AM |
Age 32, AL |
Excellent article, Steve. These points are right on target.
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 04/02/07 02:22:59 PM |
Age 64, OH |
Having read the article and the readers' comments to date, and being acquainted with the pro and con arguments about TULIP, I would like to pose a question to those who have replied:
Is your response to what you read based in the peace of God which Christ has offered us, or in anger, frustration or hostility?
The article was not intended for doctrinal education, just as your alarm clock does not tell you what the day will hold. It is simply a wake-up call. The Bereans would understand it clearly and act accordingly.
If the author seems (to you) less than charitable, it may be because MANY in the "E" movement are less than Christian, as is true to some degree of any movement.
The point above all others is that Jesus Christ is to be exalted and God glorified in accordance with the Scriptures and by the leading of the Holy Spirit. As for us, we must realize that there is but ONE New Man in Christ, whose body is composed only of faithful disciples.
al
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/30/07 10:25:24 AM |
Age 48, QC |
Way to go Steve. You have expressed your just how little you know about the emerging church. I am a part of it, and I would disagree with much of what you say. It is unfortunate that one part of the body must attack another. I believe it breaks God's heart.
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- Re: Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/31/07 08:49:48 AM | | Age 50, MN | If you disagree so much with the article, I'm sure you could point out where Mr. Camp gets it wrong. It's very easy to say someone is wrong with no evidence to prove it. So, prove it. Everything Mr. Camp says, I have seen as well in emergent/emerging churches. I just can't articulate it as well as he can. Click here to reply to this post
- Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 03/30/07 04:29:33 PM | | Age 56, OR | Quote from T.U.L.I.P.
"2. Unconditional Election (God is no respecter of man nor influenced by man.)
God has shown us in his Word that from eternity past he has elected some sinners to be saved from the condemnation that is justly deserved by all, purely on account of his gracious mercy and love, not because of any foreseen merits in those sinners. Because of the fact of total depravity, salvation must originate with God, and we read in the Bible that it is God's sovereign will alone that has determined the recipients of that salvation.
This doctrine does not render God unjust, for all are guilty and all deserve to suffer God's judgement. Rather, it emphasizes the grace of God by the fact that he has chosen some for salvation.
Scripture references: Psalm 65:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Romans 9:11; Ephesians 1:4,5,9,11; Romans 11:5; Romans 9:15,23; Psalm 103:11; 1 Peter 1:2-3; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Jonah 2:9." ----
!!! "God has chosen some for salvation" !!!
Are you kidding, or what! Is this saying that Jesus was only good enough for a few? I though He came to save the world. I thought that if some turned their backs, then they were lost. I didn't REALISE, that God only had just enough salvation-salve to stretch to a few!!! Well, silly me. And here I was, thinking I had the freedom to choose for myself. I thought I read somewhere that the Lord God did not wish for ANY to be lost. Guess I got the wrong translation there. Oh well. Might as well go out on the town and have a fun-time at the local Church-Brothel!
Since God is gonna save me anyway if I happen to pop into the correct roulette slot... Might as well get me sinning-session over quick. Right? Dont want 'the Rapture' catching me unawares, do I? PGW Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 04/03/07 09:33:00 PM | | Age 43, NC | The greatest problem with such "free-will" theology is Matthew 7:21-23. The key here is the word "M-A-N-Y." Many who have made a free will profession that Jesus Christ is Lord will hear these words, "...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Therefore, make your calling and election sure! Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 04/19/07 07:03:32 PM | | Age 28, MD | How do you know that you have not just made a free-will profession? And how do you know that your theology is correct? Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 04/01/07 06:46:20 AM | | Age 41, PA | I think you are only looking at one side of the election question. Yes, Jesus died for all, but only some are called by Him. Yes, we have our own will and choose to come to Him, but yet, in God's Word it is very clear in several places that we are elected. I think it is one of those things we will never understand in our finite minds. But we know God's Word is true and will never contradict itself. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree - the doctrine of election is in His Word, whether we like it or not. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 04/19/07 07:34:20 PM | | Age 28, MD | Please provide scripture references that show that only some are called. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 03/31/07 04:41:48 PM | | Age 45, AR | Jesus did come to save the world, without distinction, not without exception. If Jesus came to save the world without exception, and hell exists, Jesus failed. Unless, of course, you reject the substitutionary atonement of Jesus on the cross. That is, maybe you believe that Jesus did not save anyone, he only created the potential for man to be saved provided man adds a meritorious choice to the salvation elixir. But, if this is what you believe, then you do not believe in salvation by grace alone on the basis of Jesus' atonement alone. So, if you reject unconditional election, you must give up something else. Hell or the atonement. Or, we can repent of our insistence on libertarian free will, and embrace all of what Scripture teaches: unconditional election, hell, and the atonement. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 04/01/07 04:30:19 PM | | Age 56, OR | I thought the "L" stood for limitLESS grace, LOVE etc. Why do we take a struggling theologan's thoughts (Calvin's) and turn it into a doctrine-for-all-seasons. This "L" that LIMITS atonement is wrong. It should be "M" for mamon, man and misinformation.
The act of Creation was an act of redemption, restoration and freedom to choose. It is THE only way a sinner can appreciate the Divine Awsomeness of our Great God in Jesus! Jesus died to save sinners, the world and the Creation we had given away (Like Esau) for a mess of pottage.
Our inheritance has now been redeemed. If we choose NOT to accept it then we have exercised our God given Right to turn our backs and perish. We are the big "L"...PGW Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 09/18/07 07:59:45 AM | | Age 55, CANADA | Jacobus Arminius didn't believe that Calvin was a "struggling" theologian. Look at what he said:
"after the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate... more than any other... I recommend that the Commentaries of Calvin be read... in the interpretation of the
Scriptures Calvin is incomparable... his Commentaries are more to be valued than anything
that is handed down to us in the writings of the Fathers... I concede to him a certain spirit
of prophecy in which he stands distinguished above others, above most, indeed, above all." Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: Take a look please at TULIP #2
| Posted On: 04/02/07 05:27:57 PM | | Age 45, AR | You have avoided my questions. But I will respond to your comments. I assume, although you did not answer, that you believe in hell. Do the denizens of hell receive God's limitless grace and love, or his wrath? The very existence of hell means there is a limit to God's grace and love for mankind. I agree that God's grace and love is limitless for his people, but not for all people. Unless you are a universalist, and deny hell, the atonement is limited, either in effect, or in scope. Why? Because in the final analysis, some go to hell. They do not benefit from the atonement. So, either the atonement was not effective for those in hell, or the atonement is limited in scope to the sheep that know their master's voice. You reject the notion that the atonement perfectly acheives its desired intention and is limited in scope. Therefor, you believe that the atonement is not really a penal substitution. It is just a potential and Jesus actually saves nobody. Man must save himself by adding his meritorious choice to the incomplete work of Jesus. You believe that you chose to save yourself by your acceptance of an offer of potential salvation. I believe that Jesus actually chose to save you and I and he accomplished what he chose to do. Seems that yours is the man centered theology. I do agree that Calvin was a struggling theologian. Do you know any theologians who do not struggle? Are you suggesting that you do not struggle to comprehend the full body of biblical truth? These doctrines are not based on Calvin, they are articulated by Calvin based on Scripture. Calvin did not even give us TULIP, a church synod gave us this acronym. Also, creation was not an act of redemption and restoration. Creation was an act of creation. Redemption and restoration comes after the fall, after creation. And, man does have free choice. But it is created free choice. God's choice preceeds and is necessary to man's ability to choose. Click here to reply to this post
- Hell & restoration
| Posted On: 04/03/07 08:26:00 PM | | Age 56, OR | "Redemption and restoration comes after the fall, after creation."
My Bible says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world...
"The very existence of hell means there is a limit to God's grace and love for mankind."
My Bible says that hell was made for the Devil and his angels... " If Jesus came to save the world without exception, and hell exists, Jesus failed."...
Who is talking about "WITHOUT EXCEPTION..."
...I am unclear of what your point really is.
Perhaps I have not made myself clear.
Is it not possible for the Lord God to wish all were saved, and yet not all be actually saved? Not by HIS CAPRICE, but by ours! Is it not possible that our Lord and Master COULD make us to be saved, but chooses not to because of His nature? He is Gentle and Lowly of Heart. He is the Epitomy of Mercy and Kindness and thus would NOT want an unwilling lover! It would be ANATHEMA to Him to FORCE any man or woman to Love Him. God is NOT a rapist, neither is He a man to think and act like a man. He wants a loving willing bride for His Son not a whore! If you think that the Father and the Son stood on the brink of creation without having seen the end from the beginning, then perhaps your idea of God is limited with the kind of limitation you would like to place upon Him.
PGW Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Hell & restoration
| Posted On: 04/03/07 11:50:50 PM | | Age 45, AR | Jesus was slain, in history, on Calvary. Yet, you are correct. Scripture speaks of Jesus as being slain from before the foundation of the world. How can this be? It is so because God the Father predestined the atoning death of his Son before the foundation of the world. The actualization of God's decree occured on Calvary. So, does that mean that Jesus did not submit to Calvary of his free will because the Father predestinated Calvary from before the foundation of the world? Of course not. Scripture teaches both God's sovereign predestinating decree and man's free will and moral responsibility. The two are compatible. You create a false, either/or dilemma.On your scope, either God decrees and man is not free, or man is free and God does not decree. This is not what Scripture teaches. Eph. 1:11. When Paul writes that God predestined all things according to the counsel of his will, Paul meant "all things". Your argument is against Scripture, not against TULIP or Calvinism. Why do you conclude that I reject the idea that God stood on the brink of time and foresaw all that would occur? I do not reject foresight. I embrace it. In fact, God not only foresaw all that occured, he foreordained all that would occur. How could it be any other way? If God foresaw it, it is destined to occur. Right? And, God foresaw even your choices before you exercised your will. Right? Do you not agree that God's foresight is inerrant? If his foresight is unerring, your eventual exercise of your will, in time, and in history, cannot change what God has already foreseen. Thus, you make predestined, foreseen choices. God did not make whores, he made creatures. Creatures are only capable of created choices. You want to be the self-originator of your own choices. In this, you deny God as your creator and you seek to deify yourself. Not a very healthy view for a Christian to hold. Or, from another angle, does God deserve the glory for your decision to accept Jesus? If the choice was 100% your choice, why should God receive any glory for this choice? On the other hand, if your choice was created (foreordained) by God, then God gets the glory for the choice you made. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Hell & restoration
| Posted On: 04/06/07 07:01:47 PM | | Age 56, OR | I think I see your position is an impossible one. For the questions you pose, are largely unanswerable.. therefore you revert to saying I am on dangerous ground etc. Let me quote just one of your observations. (And this is for any confused non-Christian, or newer Christian that may read this.)
QUOTE " If God foresaw it, it is destined to occur. Right? " ENDQUOTE.
+++ My answer: Sir, why use the new age's overused word 'destined' as if it were a crystal's incantation rite? If you can separare your thoughts from a pre-programmed religious context and see the word destined as rather over used... How about, 'God saw it first, talked about it and then it happened. (from our perspective).'
+++ So then we read, God invited, those that acted on the invite were chosen and are 'the elect' so to speak, working out their salvation in fear and trembling...
+++ This way we do not keep shoving the Lord God into a man-made corner. It is illustrated by the Good Shepherd leaving the 99 saved sheep and going after the unsaved one. God's values generally are not wholly embraced by us, since WE would not abandon 99 sheep and leave them to possible death just to chase after one lost one. RIGHT? PGW Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: Hell & restoration
| Posted On: 04/06/07 07:37:36 PM | | Age 45, AR | "Destined" and "predestined" are biblical words. Why do you choose to overlook my citation to Eph. 1:11? I warned you that your view is unhealthy, and you have just proven my point. I quote Scripture and you accuse me of being a new ager for having done so. The questions I ask are certainly not unanswerable. God has answered all of these questions clearly in Scripture. You have demonstrated that you do not like these answers because you prefer to protect your deification of your own choice. Why is it that we are able to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Because it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil. 2:12-13. I repeat, your argument is not with Calvinism and TULIP, your argument is with Scripture. Thus, you are the one who insists on shoving God into your manmade categories. Why do you fight against what God has clearly revealed? God is sovereign, even over your choices. God chose us before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4. Ergo, he chose us before we chose him. Click here to reply to this post
- Circular reasoning??
| Posted On: 04/07/07 12:03:43 PM | | Age 56, OR | I believe you have reasoned in a circle. I see now that you really DO dissagree with T.U.L.I.P.
Since you agree that we were chosen before the foundation of the world, you have slightly contradicted your earlier comments.
God must have 'chosen' me since I am here and able to CHOOSE back. Good comment. But, He also says that we may have a choice in the matter also. If you say that we do not have any choice, then this is erronous. PGW. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Circular reasoning??
| Posted On: 04/09/07 11:34:01 PM | | Age 45, AR | Do not, have not, will not say that man has no choice. Go back and read my previous posts. Thus, no circular arguments, no disagreement with TULIP, no contradictions. I am arguing what Scripture teaches; to wit, God is sovereign and man is responsible. Both are real and compatible. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Circular reasoning??
| Posted On: 04/19/07 07:44:02 PM | | Age 28, MD | What then does irresistible grace refer to? Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/30/07 07:12:56 AM |
Age 35, MI |
I was thinking about this very thing (once again) this morning. I have some "Christian" friends who have walked directly into this type of emerging congregation. The Word of God is always true.....itching ears will be tickled. Thank you for exposing the darkness of this terrible fallacy.
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/30/07 12:05:53 AM |
Age 40, TX |
While I am deeply concerned with the false teachings and doctrine coming out of the emergent/emerging/missional/etc movements, I am equally concerned that there has been such a big push of Calvinism or Reformed doctrine in equally large proportions. It is though 'Calvinism' is othodoxy, and it alone. R.C. Sproul is quoted I believe as saying, 'Calvinism is just another name for Christianity'.
I would kindly ask those who really love Calvinism so much to be more balanced in dealing with the life of John Calvin. Quite a character I must say. Unforetunately, those who follow his institutes, his teachings, etc. rarely discuss the very dark side of this man or suggest that he was just a victom of the age he lived in. No doubt we can actually learn something I suppose from the darkest of men. However, it would seem that someone, like Calvin, involved in mass murder, should be looked at again to see what place he really should have in our lives.
I would love to have dialogue on this issue.
Shane
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- Re: Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 04/20/07 10:20:42 PM | | Age 28, FL | I am amazed that individuals in America would present the King of the universe as being subjected to the decree and the will of man. From the presupposition of Scripture we are told that the word of the Lord will not return void and it will accomplish what it was set out to do. Moreover, in the book of Daniel, we are told that their isn't anyone that can push away His hand. Now, it would seem that their is a lack of Church history, which has been spoken. John Calvin was not the first to speak about limited atonement.
My friend, you assume that your supposition does not limit Christ redeeming work. You limit the power of Christ's blood. I find this to be more unscriptural and a axiomatic belief that one impose on the Scripture than actually studying the Scripture for what it is worth. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 04/19/07 10:20:22 PM | | Age 25, FL | Yo,
It would seem that your views on Calvinism and Calvin are more man centered and bias then anything else. Calvin was a man of his time which was very barbaric unlike our culture, so many impose our laws and mindsets on History. Heretics were burned and killed unlike in our culture. Sometimes I wish I lived in their culture (With a different skin color of course) b/c the false teaching that resides here in the America is ridiculous and shouldn't be tolerated. I guess you'd say Elijah was wrong for killing baal's prophets as well, perhaps. Also what do you think of Solomon, David, and Samson? They committed more devious sins then Calvin but would you question their Doctrine as well therefore throwing a couple books out of Canon? I think not. The article was on point and we must address the wolves in sheep clothing wherever they spring up.
Hail King Jesus,
seal Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/31/07 10:45:43 AM | | Age 54, AZ | I totally agree with you Shane. It amazes me that the Calvinists who decry the Emerging Church and their flawed dominionist theology are blind to their own flawed theologies that are just as dominionist. My husband was brought up Dutch Reformed and suffered through the unbiblical extreme positions of Calvin. He too has read biographies of Calvin that expose just how flawed this man really was. The Calvinists were a product of their times and protesting the Catholic Church. But in so doing they didn't go nearly far enough in breaking free of the very system they loathed (their keeping infant baptism is just one of many examples). Forget Calvin. We need to return to the biblical, Judaic roots of our faith and the method of interpretation employed by Jesus and the writers of the New Testament. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/31/07 09:27:31 PM | | Age 32, AL | i think the emergent church is the most dangerous deception to hit the church in the last century. but, i'm right with you about the calvinism regurgance too. i ran into both "theologies" at about the same time. it was easy for me to reject the "man-centered" gospel of the emergents, but i had to grapple with the t.u.l.i.p a little bit longer. there is an awful lot of verses in the bible that support predestination and election, but as i read through the bible i don't see the same support for the limited atonement set forth by calvin. and when reformed theolgans seek to explain away verses such as john 3:16, 1 john 2:2,luke 2:10, etc. and the many, many others that plainly say jesus died for all mankind they must re-fashion words such as all and whole to fit a theology conceived by a man. i think it's safe to say that there are some things such as free will and predestination--two concepts clearly supported by scripture--that can not be reconciled in our finite minds and should be left to the "secret things of God." he is a good and just God and that is enough for me. btw, could you point me to a good bio on john calvin. i know very little about his personal life. norm geisler's systematic theology vol. 3 contains an excellent defense of an unlimited atonement if you're interested in reading more. Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 04/02/07 08:21:16 PM | | Age 40, FL | John 17: 9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world(he said he is not praying for the world) but for those whom you have given me(that would be the elect), for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
Ro 5:15 -
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Heb 9:28 -
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many(he didnt bear the sins of all but of many), will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Mt 22:14 -
For many are called, but few are chosen.(notice the word chosen.Who chose who? You might say "I chose Christ" and Christ will say:
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. Click here to reply to this post
Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/29/07 11:24:03 PM |
Age 60, TX |
Truthiness has replaced truth. Truthiness means "a satirical term to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively, instinctively, or from the gut without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts." Churches have lost their focus and have forgotten that it was God's idea and plan before the foundation of the world. Jesus said that "he would build the church and the gates of Hades would not prevail." However, in our follow the heart or "gut" mentality we have lost sight of what the true purpose of the church is. The church is to exalt Christ and His Word, Education and equip the saints in the Truth of God's word, Edify the Body of Christ and Evangelize with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The church is not divided along political lines, but between those who think with their head & those who know with their heart. Truthiness is tearing apart our churches. It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Truth & facts no longer matter at all. Perception is everything. It's certainty. What is important? What YOU want to be true, or what IS true? Truthiness is 'What I say is right, and (nothing) anyone else says could possibly be true.' It's not only that I FEEL it to be true, but that "I" feel it to be true."
The Emerging T.U.L.I.P. is truthiness in full bloom. Whatever happened to the TRUE TRUTH as God defined?
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/29/07 08:53:57 PM |
Age 44, NE |
Were in not for the fact that this subject is so very, very dire AND tragic
your "T.U.L.I.P" acronym would be cutting edge as satire. As it is however, the keeness to which you have so aptly exposed the heart of the matter is simply spot on. I heartily congratulate you for this composite as it will provide (for me at least) a wonderful "Cliff Notes" remedy for what the "E's" (having just coined this phrase as I write this, the name seems so appropriate and accordingly takes away any esteem and chic that this "movement" thinks that it has as it really is just a Seinfeld type of nothingness posing itself as "Christianity"; shudder the thought)believe. I'm in the process of reading John MacArthur's new book,"The Truth War" and am so grateful for all who willingly and selflessly "stand firm in the faith" and thus are then acting "like men" and are "be[ing] strong"(1 Corinthians 16:13) I would argue for the glory of the Lord. To quote John MacArthur speaking of Luther, "Like Martin Luther, may we rise above the doubts within and confront the threats without when God's Word is assailed. God help us to be loyal contenders of the faith. Let us stand with God and the Scripture alone." To all and to which I heartily say, Amen my brothers and again I say AMEN! Darrel
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/29/07 08:19:16 PM |
Age 59, GA |
I came out of an emerging tradition. The Lord placed a discomfort in my heart and I found that reform theology answered every question I had asked for 20 years without an answer.
After reading the article all I can say is a hearty AMEN! I was witness to the modernization of the Gospel. It satisfied the flesh but agitated the spirit.
Thank you.
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Re: The Emerging T.U.L.I.P....Pretending to be Orthodox
| Posted On: 03/29/07 06:16:27 PM |
Age 50, MN |
"If you challenge it, you are labeled as Victorian and out of date"
Not to mention Pharisaical and judgemental. Those are very popular terms for those who attempt to show these young Christians? the error of their ways.
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