Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 08:58:04 AM |
Age 41, SD |
Unfortunately,
We have lost the meaning of the purpose for church. Church is not for the unsaved, but the saved. God has bestowed the Pastor to equip the believers to go into the world to preach the gospel. No where in the Bible is it the Pastor's duty to bring them in, it is the body of Christ that is to bring them in after sharing the gospel with them, so the new converts may grow in Christ through his word and fellowship with other believers.
Unfortunately, too many believers want to take the easy way out and not get their feet whet while entering the ocean of the perishing, to be their "life savers."
This is a sad time for the body of Christ in general when we loose sight of the order.
Sure, some people have accepted Christ in a church service, but in many cases they don't stay long in church, for we take it for granted that their spiritual needs are being met. Where is the follow up? The discipleschip in teaching these new believers?
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 08:53:53 AM |
Age 32, LA |
If people are going to church to visit a bathroom, I don't think their heart and mind is actually focused on God.
Maybe they should paint the bathrooms like hell and the sanctuary like heaven.
Then they could take a count of who and how many stay where.
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 05:16:50 PM | | Age 38, CA |
Love it!
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 08:46:06 AM |
Age 47, FL |
Thanks Todd for your article. WAY TO GO!!!!
You are the voice for many many many of us. Keep proclaiming the truth. Don't let them get away with this nonsense creeping into our churches. Keep calling them to mat as long as they keep it up.
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 08:18:12 AM |
Age 44, MI |
In the famous words of Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis!". In the case of the church reaching out to folks disenchanted with sex, isn't it great that a church is trying to show them that the only thing that fills the void is God? Or do we beat them over the head and tell them how awful they are for doing the nasty outside of wedlock. Most conservative churches choose the latter.
While toilet decor doesn't get me pumped up, if a church is having success with that in their ministry, who is anyone to be a killjoy?
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 06:11:45 AM |
Age 52, IN |
I agree! I have heard it said, "First you have to get them in--by whatever means-then you can present the gospel", but to cheapen the Word of God to do it?!!!
Jesus overturned the tables in the church(synagogue) and drove them out when people were using the house of God for drawing people there for something other than the Gospel, would He do any less today?!!!
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 03:08:37 PM | | Age 40, FL |
AMEN!!!!!!
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 03:35:30 AM |
Age 54, FL |
I think it's sad that we Christians spend so much time criticizing the way other Christians reach people for Jesus. If some other church's bathroom brings people in contact with the savior, then I say, "Go for it!" (pun intended). If someone else comes to church hoping to enhance their sex life, and ends up in Heaven, I say, "Fantastic!" Didn' the Apostle Paul say, "I have become ALL things to ALL people in hopes of saving some?" We should be celebrating souls being saved instead of pooh-poohing how they were reached (pun also intended).
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 04:12:15 PM | | Age 20, CO |
Sir, I agree with the author of the article on how the churches of this day are using whatever means, no matter how low or what the cost, just to "bring people to the Lord". The only way that you could rightfully say that Jesus used whatever He could to bring people the Truth would be in what He talked about. But it is not in the way that you are suggesting. He would CONDEMN homosexuality, blasphemy, adultery, etc. and in that way, He would bring controversial issues up but He never encouraged the filth and the sin. He CONDEMNED it. Why should someone want to "accept Christ" if they can do things once they have supposedly "accepted Christ" that they did anyways without Him? What difference would there be in a professed Christian life or in a secular life accept for making a mockery of it? It would be better for the churches to follow the whole Bible and see few come to the full understanding and personal relationship with Christ than for them to use one or two verses that have been taken in the wrong context so that they correspond with whatever they want....and have that bring multitudes of "professing" yet extremely weak "Christians" into the churches. The Lord will bring those who are called when He so plans. Our many, many futile attempts to "bring people to the Lord" are mostly wishy-washy "covered in grace no matter what" or "just believe in God" statements and will not bring people into a saving relationship with the Lord. What good is it to just believe? Even demons believe and shudder.
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- Re: Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 09:37:20 PM | | Age 54, FL |
From what I read here most of the criticism isn't about the restroom in question, it's about other unproven violations such as watering down the gospel. Has it actually been shown that these bathroom blasphemers have committed these other offenses? No! They are just made up to bolster a pathetically weak argument. Again, it's the Christian Army lining it's own most effective warriors up against the wall of legalism and opening fire. When the Savior who hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors in order to reach them (before they were believers, I think) finally passes out the "well dones", I'd sure like to be there to see who gets theirs; the guys with the bathroom and a few saved sinners, or the critics and their poison pens.
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 12:36:37 PM | | Age 48, OH |
Exactly. Rather than running the race, we would rather trip up other people who are trying to run the best they know how.
The author here may have a point. But is this topic something that is even worth writing an article about? Who is his audience? What does he hope to accomplish with this article? Who is he hoping to help? What good comes of making those who decorate a bathroom feel guilty about it? Why was the article really written? Was it just an opportunity to take a cheap pot shot at a church because the author doesn't like what they're doing? Or is there a genuine problem he is trying to address? Is it really a work of God to write such an article?
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/14/07 04:37:56 PM |
Age 50, MN |
When I first heard about this "church", I didn't realize it was basically in my back yard. Now that I know where it is, I think I'll pass. Of course, considering the U2 driven and purpose driven churches that surround it, maybe this church isn't so bad. Wouldn't that be something? A church with a flamed outhouse is actually better than the ones around it? Not likely. Somehow, I think all of them have lost the way.
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 09:22:08 AM | | Age 42, AB |
Good article. Recently I had a conversation with a young man who wanted to start a "skateboard ministry" to reach teenagers. "Why don't you just use the Gospel? It is the power of God unto salvation" I said. The power of the Gospel brought me to Christ not a gimmick or a new sound system or a Christian rock group or thank God, a toilet. A toilet. Just think about it for a minute... if it weren't so blasphemous it would be laughable. They trample on the blood of our Lord. How low can it get? I'm afraid we haven't seen the worst of it yet.
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/14/07 01:38:24 PM |
Age 39, CA |
I agree with the general point made by the author. However, regarding using scripture alone to draw the attention of others is not Biblical. 1) Jesus fed thousands when he knew most were only interested in the food, and 2) While in Greece, Paul tried to gain the interest of the Greeks by suggesting that the empty space in their temple reserved for the unknown god was reserved for Jehova.
To provide an experience to verify what I am saying: I am an evangelist that provides support for missionaries in Mexico. While on a visit, a recent convert indicated that in the past, he would only come for the food, but one day Jesus revealed Himself to him and since then, his life has changed drastically.
The church indicated in this article does stretch the idea of using bait to attract sinners, but for the author to insinuate that scripture alone should be used to attract sinners limits the strategies and bait that both Jesus and Paul used -- as the Bible clearly demonstrates.
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 08:32:07 AM | | Age 40, CO |
I agree that Jesus did feed those who already believed & that Paul went out and preached to the masses. The NT says that the disciples/believers went from house to house to preach the gospel. They went to temples, city courtyards, marketplaces and pavillions to reason and plead the gospel that some might be saved.
I dont see the disciples using "your sex life will get better" if you follow Jesus tactic anywhere in the bible (or the promises of prosperity, health, etc). The gospel was always about sin, judgment, hell, then salvation that only Christ can bring. That He was given all power and authority, and that He would judge the living and the dead.
Sure Jesus and the disciples started in the natural realm talking about everyday things they observed around them (Jesus with the woman at the well, Paul seeing the false gods at the Areopagus). BUT they swung the discussion to the spiritual - it was all about the "good news" but you cant have "good news" without first telling the "bad news"; that even tho mankind was destined to hell for breaking God's law and that there was nothing man could do to save himself, Jesus paid the fine and the penaly they so rightly deserved. BUT God's love IS conditional that man must repent, believe, confess and follow Him.
Sure Jesus was not just a preacher of good news, but His life was also an example of "ministering" (feeding the hungry, healing the sick, IOW fulfilling needs as He saw them). He set the example for us to follow - to preach His good news, and have a life filled with works of righteousness.
This new "modern christianity lite" preaching just doesnt work - one evangelist I know said that if the gospel message you preach cant be used with everyone (rich, poor, homeless, etc), everywhere then its probably not a good gospel.
I agree with Todd that a lot of preachers have watered down the Word so that they can drawn people into the church... but didnt God say that He draws people unto Him? Ummm...
Take care & God bless,
Steve
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- Re: Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 04:28:55 PM | | Age 39, CA |
Allow me to answer your question regarding Jesus' statement that "no one can come to me unless my Father draw them to me." with a question.
How did God the father draw Dionysius and Damaris to become believers?
Hint: Through Paul's use of logical reasoning in Acts 17:22-34.
Don't be too sure of yourself without deep study.
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/14/07 11:04:30 PM | | Age 18, CA |
Although Jesus did feed the 5000, it was mostl made up of those who already believed what he said, not those who were passing by on the road. They had already sat to listen.
As for Paul, he used a segway, sure... but wasn't using it to get them to come into his temple. He preached to them right there about salvation.
Great article, Mr. Mr. Friel!
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- Re: Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/16/07 11:53:39 AM | | Age 39, CA |
Point 1) The 5000 were not all followers:
Jn 6:26, "Jesus answered them and said, 'Most assuredly I say to you, you seek Me not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.'" And, Jn 6:66, "From that time, many of His followers went back and walked with Him no more."
Point 2) Jesus knew who were His and who were not His:
Jn 6:64, ...for Jesus knew who they were who did not believe.
Point 3) Not all the people who literally followed Jesus left Him on the following day. Jn 6:66 indicates "many," not all, left. This is why I say, Jesus used food to attract the interest of those who were His to return on the following day, during which He separated the chaff (majority) from the wheat.
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- Re: Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 04:33:43 PM | | Age 39, CA |
In Greece, Paul used logical reasoning to attract the attention of Dionysius and Damaris. Once he had their attention, he then presented the Gospel, through which both became saved.
Please read Acts 17:22-34.
Thanks.
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- Re: Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 08:44:02 AM | | Age 41, NM |
Yes the 5,000 who came already knew of Jesus, but to say that they were believers is quite a stretch. look at John 6. Jesus feeds the 5,000. The next day he spoke to the same crowd, who had followed him around the lake. But he spoke hard truths they couldn't swallow - SO THEY LEFT! They were not true believers. V41 - They began to grumble. V52 -They began to argue over what Jesus was saying. V60 - Many of the disciples said, "This is a hard saying." V64 - Jesus said, "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones did not believe. V66 - FROM THIS TIME MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES TURNED BACK AND NO LONGER FOLLOWED HIM. And in V67 Jesus asked the twelve, "Do you want to leave too."
Be careful not to read into the scriptures what you want it to say - certainly the 5,000 were not true believers!
However - I still agree with the author on his point. We are watering down the truth of the gospel. It seems to me that Paul's prescription is better: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes..."
Great article Todd.
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Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/14/07 01:21:48 PM |
Age 56, OK |
Excellent article, it really hits the target. I attend a "seeker-freindly" church and I am really starting to question some of our methods. While I beleive we should show the love of Christ through our lives, I do not think that we need to add gimicks to the Gospel. Should we keep our church building nice and clean? By all means but that is just being a good steward of the facility God gave you.
I have search the scriptures and everywhere I read we our told to GO and tell, go to where the lost is, get out of the four walls of the church, but GO! It seems we are more concerned with marketing the church than sharing the Good News.
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/15/07 11:26:20 AM | | Age 53, AL |
Bingo/go tell/with actions, with the Lord's love. A couple of weeks ago a tornado changed our lives for ever, and Christians took that command to heart/go tell/and they came, like the family from Mobile walking around dad, as he drove the tractor looking for a place to help, they sensed the need and they came. They are still coming as construction crews repairing house, giving comfort and just simply loving us. As voluntiers helping clean up the mess, in a thousand ways they have come and they are still coming. Scripture is all/it says the He gives us a Spirit of Power, Love and a sound mind, not fear. Maybe that is how you can tell a true Church; because it walks in Power, Love and a Sound Mind. Go tell.
editor please repair gramma as needed/for your prayer room pray for us/still much to do. Pray for our families that lost kids in this thing from hell.
thank you and God Bless You
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- Re: Re: The Potty Driven Life
| Posted On: 03/14/07 01:42:42 PM | | Age 39, CA |
Please do yourself a great deed and find a local church that isn't seeker sensitive. Why eat crumbs from the Heavenly Bread, when you can have your fill somewhere else?
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