FREE WORLDVIEW MAG FREE WORLDVIEW RALLIES
Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
PAGE: 1 2 3 4 NEXT>

Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 05:26:00 PM Age 55, MN
The only other Helper for a man is The Holy Spirit, as described in the Bible. So the use of the word helper is not to be interpreted as door mat or servant! Marriage as created by God was to be co-regents of all creation! But just as there can be only one Head of the Church there can be only one leader of the Family when tough decisions need to be made! Otherwise decisions are to be made by the couple together. When there is disagreement then the husband needs to make the call and be accountable for the ramifications of it! This is not license to dominate by the man as under the curse, and because of that curse the woman should not try to usurp the mans authority under God.
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
    Posted On: 03/27/07 12:50:32 PMAge 26, DC
    The article mentioned how women and men are equals, and yet have different roles. Ms Bure used the analogy of an army commander versus his subordinates, and that the roles of both are important. This is somewhat true -- but why do you think that an army captain is often called the soldier's "superior"? The answer is, because a low-ranking official is considered inferior to a high-ranking official, and the role of a captain is more important than that of a private. I fear the same kinds of attitudes are being promoted here. Additionally, I fear that the chaotic description of what would occur if a wife refused to submit to her husband was inaccurate. It was the description of a child's behavior, not that of a full-grown woman. Of course no wife should pout when she doesn't get her own way, or mock her husband when she turns out to be right. Instead, two loving adults should be able to have discussions and come to mutual decisions, both eager to defer to the other's good judgement, and each sticking up for their strong convictions. Decisions are made this way all the time, and in a loving home, discussion will never lead to a good man abandoning his home to find a submissive woman, as Ms. Bure suggests.
    Click here to reply to this post



Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 03:33:22 PM Age 38, TX
Let me begin by saying that I am a man and that you are are one of the few women whom I believe has had the honesty and courage to face up to the clear teaching of Scripture on the subject of women submitting to their husbands. Most women I believe know this and conveniently ignore it so they don't have to face up to it. And then they wonder and complain why their marriage is dsfunctional or they get divorced. I haven't even heard pastors point this out in a single sermon. Not once--ever. The last generation of men has been banged in the head for decades by liberal feminists to believe that if we assert any kind of leadership whatsoever, or imply that a woman should submit in any shape, form, or fashion, we are total male chauvinist pigs, which is not the case. Your point that women are helpers is important; they are not slaves. Men should keep that in mind also. Men should do housework, whatever it is: diapers, vacuuming, dishes, laundry, auto/household repairs, sweeping, mopping, shopping, etc, and often. One thing I thought you could have included though, ws the command of God in Eph 5: 18, ff to men to submit to loving their wives as Christ loved the church.
Click here to reply to this post

Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word - Despite the stereotype, the Bible clearly bans male-headship-as-slavery
Posted On: 03/06/07 01:54:07 PM Age 20, VA
I think one reason why many wives tend to shy away from Ephesians 5:22-24 is because throughout history, too many husbands (and often church leaders as well) have ignored Ephesians 5:25-33. Therefore, a discussion of female submission would be greatly helped by a parallel discussion of male sacrifice in order to keep things balanced and in perspective, as such husbandly behavior destroys the stereotype of Simon Legree male headship and restores the biblical loving relationship. Note that these verses are NOT merely satisfied by a husband claiming that he would die to save his wife should such a reliably unlikely situation arise, for Christ did not act as a dictator every day except Good Friday - he continually served and gave himself up for his church daily throughout his life. Husbands should not jut be willing to die for their wives, but to wash their feet. In secular society, one's authority is directly correlated to how much one's own comfort/pleasure is prioritized. The king gets pretty much everything he wants, the duke gets most of what he wants, the freeman peasant gets some of what he wants, and the slave gets none of what he wants. This system makes sense from the world's selfish, fallen perspective, as the powerful use their power to benefit themselves at the expense of the weak. In God's plan, the correlation is reversed: where self-sacrificing agape love, not selfishness, is the rule, the powerful use their power to benefit the weak at their own expense. Christ himself gave the ultimate example of this when he, omnipotent pantokrator, "did not come to be served, but to serve" (Matt. 20:28). When applied to marriage, this principle of a comfort-authority negative correlation has strong implications. Since the authority structure is Husband->Wife->Children, the children's well-being should be protected first, then the wife's, then the husband's. This includes little things, not just life-threatening ones. For example, if a husband and wife are going to the movies and disagree about what to watch (and, for purposes of argument, compromises like taking turns are not an option), he should "give himself up for her" and watch the movie she wants - the exact opposite of the stereotype. A husband should never treat his wife in any way in which he would not want Christ to treat him. In addition to following God's structure for authority, this system of marriage is by far the most practical. Let's face it, with a body of two, majoritarian systems won't work - everything that isn't unanimous (2-0) will be deadlocked (1-1). The biblical system of female submission and male sacrifice leads to a solution akin to the old last-piece-of-pie compromise: the husband divides the pie and then lets his wife take the larger piece. Even if men and women were identical (like the children with the pie are), this would be the fairest, most efficient system, and considering that this system also makes use of the sexes' differences (something which I do not have the space to discuss here), it is definitely the best solution to the dilemma of authority in a two-party marriage - provided both sides live up to their duties in it. If the child who divides the pie grabs the larger slice before the other has a chance to choose, the result is injustice, and can lead to the misconception that the original system that they were supposed to follow is unfair and make it unpalatable for those assigned to let the other do the dividing.
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word - Despite the stereotype, the Bible clearly bans male-headship-as-slavery
    Posted On: 03/06/07 02:16:40 PMAge 47, CO
    Let's not fall into the trap of "you firstism"... God's call on each of us (husband and wife) is INDEPENDANT of the others performance. In other words, the husband is commanded to love his wife as Christ loved the church regardless of her level of commitment or submission. Likewise, the wifes submission to her husband is commanded of her irrespective of his faithfulness in loving her. In short, a Christian's duties in ALL of their relationships (Husband/wife being one) are to be performed faithfully, as unto the Lord, independant of the performance of others. Husbands and wives who are seeking to walk faithfully before God will not be concerning themselves with the faithfulness of the other party BEFORE they are faithful. Rather, they will seek to be faithful IN SPITE OF the other party, entrusting themselves to the Faithfulness of Him whose they are.
    Click here to reply to this post

    1. Re: Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word - Despite the stereotype, the Bible clearly bans male-headship-as-slavery
      Posted On: 03/21/07 11:41:18 AMAge 36, IA
      AMEN!! We are each one responsible for what God has called us to in His written Word, regardless of how other people respond to His Word. Thus, when I am submitting to my husband (and honoring and respecting, also Scriptural terms), it is as to the Lord, not because the MAN "deserves" it, but because GOD commanded it. We live in a culture that screams out "it's all about me", and the Lord says, it's all about others.
      Click here to reply to this post



Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 01:39:16 PM Age 59, CA
That's terrific! It is much more effective to have a woman than a man teach on this subject. Just 2 months ago one of our pastors taught on the same subject. I have been a pastor and Christian leader in several denominations for 35 years, and never heard a more annointed message on this subject than this one by Deborah Cobrae of The Rock Church and World Outreach Center in San Bernardino, CA. You can download it for free by clicking on http://www.rockchurchfamily.com/resources/archive.htm, downloading the set, Marriage God's Way, and then playing Part 2. Rich Blessings from God on all who align their lives with God's word! Dr. Steve Kobernik
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
    Posted On: 03/06/07 02:38:15 PMAge 47, CO
    Dr. Kobernik... I appreciate the sincerity or your post. However, the effectiveness of ones message (speaking of biblical messages) has nothing to do with the gender of the presenter. In fact, the idea of a female pastor teaching men stands in opposition to scripture regardless of the message (1 Tim 2:11-14, 1 Cor 14:35-36). The message of scripture finds it's power in the Author not the method or messenger. The messenger is consigned to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. So, to begind with, one needs to establish the scriptural basis for the teacher/presenter standing before the body. The effectiveness of the message, then, begins with being faithful, discerning, and wise in the handling of the Word. Aligning ourselves with the Word means embracing the WHOLE cousel of God, not just the parts which don't grate against modern sensibilities.
    Click here to reply to this post

Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 01:34:37 PM Age 53, SD
Submission doesn't mean that my husband arbitrarily makes decisions - we discuss and consider alternatives and talk about what is most important to each of us in any issue. That is because we both want to make right decisions and balance all of the related needs. When we agree to disagree, he (like the Vice President in the House of Representatives) has the decision-making authority. I go along with those decisions (without contention) not because I trust my husband implicitly, but because I trust God implicitly. And, in our 27 years of marriage, there have been very few decisions where we didn't reach full agreement, because we love each other and want to please each other. It is so incredibly important to select a marriage partner who can be trusted to hear from God.
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
    Posted On: 03/06/07 02:41:13 PMAge 47, CO
    Well said Sister...
    Click here to reply to this post



Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 11:44:04 AM Age 44, TX
Candace, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pray about writing a book on this topic...the need is enormous and we know our LORD wants His truth to make so many people free (Jn. 8:31-32). It doesn't have to be 500 pages lol....even a small book would be soooo helpful in communicating this vital truth. thanks
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
    Posted On: 03/06/07 01:54:01 PMAge 47, CO
    The book's been written already. God's Word is sufficient. Our problem in NOT a lack of adequate instruction or direction from the Lord. Our problem is our refusal to believe God and obey what He's ALREADY written. If Christians will not submit to the inspired Word they already have, how can we expect scriptural submission to extra-biblical writings? As good as the article is, I'm certain that Candace would agree that she's merely seeking to echo the tenor of Scripture. The reality is this, Candaces article is only valid in it's premise because it is "Scriptural." Let's focus on walking faithfully in the Spirit, according to the revealed Word. That's a lifes worth of work already for me...
    Click here to reply to this post

Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 11:36:29 AM Age 44, TX
Candace, thank you so much for this article. I must say that tears filled my eyes as I read these words...my the LORD bless this woman who wrote to you. So rare is this biblical mindset today that scarcely can a man who seeks to honor God find a godly/virtuous wife (Prov. 31). I have had Christian male friends for years call me with this heartwrenching condition of our nation. Thank you so much...and may God be praised for your husband (whom i was privileged to meet in dallas/ftw in 2005 at the worldview conference).....todd tomasella....i was actually reading this following article when i saw and read yours here..... ARE WOMEN INNOCENT VICTIMS? by Carol Tharp Almy, M.D http://www.safeguardyoursoul.com/html/are_women_innocent_victims_.html
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
    Posted On: 03/06/07 02:00:42 PMAge 44, TX
    oooooops kirk is your brother...so sorry
    Click here to reply to this post



Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 11:12:06 AM Age 47, CO
Ah... Fresh air. What a delight! In His Service...
Click here to reply to this post

Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 10:35:44 AM Age 26, KY
What a great response, Candace. I would add from my personal experience in both fighting and conceding the idea of submission, that the greatest struggle that I had, was not really with the idea of submission after all. My struggle, and I think the struggle of many women out there, is trusting that God really loves us enough to provide for our needs in every way when we submit to His commands. While studying the book of Ruth for an example of what it meant to be a godly woman, I was struck by the first statements that Boaz spoke to Ruth. He recognized her service to her mother-in-law and spoke the blessings of God to her. This implied to me that he recognized that she had VALUE to God, which I believe is why he was so careful to treat her with respect. It is hard to believe sometimes, especially if you have been in wrong or sinful relationships like I had been in before meeting my husband, that God really makes godly men like that still - but He does! What a blessing that is to have, and I have to say that I have found that submission is no weak position - rather it is strength under control. The word helper or helpmeet is really a translation of a word that means something more like "life saver" or at least implies a person who has the back of a commrade, so your military metaphor was maybe even more dead on than you might have known. Another great book I would recommend on the subject is CAPTIVATING John and Stasi Eldridge. I found personally, that once I realized that God loved me enough to provide when I obey, that a godly husband makes all the difference (and listen up every single and searching woman out there - That man is worth the wait!!), and that through godly submission I show God's strength in me and not my weakness (as the world professes) - God has been able to work in my life and give me freedom that I did not know was possible before. Is there still struggle at times? Sure, but it wouldn't be called a battle if there wasn't a fight, and my marriage - more importantly, my relationship with God, is worth fighting for!
Click here to reply to this post



Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
Posted On: 03/06/07 09:32:27 AM Age 42, TX
Good points. Very good article. Men need to know this, as well as women. Maybe you should write a book.
Click here to reply to this post

  1. Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
    Posted On: 03/06/07 12:44:56 PMAge 42, TX
    Good article, but unfortunately most Christian women do not buy into this. They claim to submit and they may on occasion as a token gesture, but that is truly the exception and not the rule. In most cases men must allow themselves to be trampled just to keep the peace.
    Click here to reply to this post

    1. Re: Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
      Posted On: 03/13/07 12:41:57 PMAge 44, TX
      With no pessimism in my heart, i have to fully agree that sometime the so-called "christian" woman in America is more Jezebellian than those who don't even know what it means to be saved. Sorry but this is from many years of observation. It's time to repent and fall upon the mercy of God - fully.
      Click here to reply to this post

    2. Re: Re: Re: Submissive Is NOT a Four Letter Word
      Posted On: 03/09/07 09:30:18 AMAge 42, IL
      Be careful when you say "most" Christian women. From these posts there are many of us who have been taught and are practicing true biblical submission (not the doormat variety) and who have husbands who are exercising true biblical leadership in the home. One thing that Candace brought out is that the women must let her husband lead. Sadly, our society does battle these ideas strongly/consistently and as the women indicated, somehow they believe it diminishes a womens worth. The idea of " rights" goes hand in hand with this. For a husband to give true spiritual and physical leadership, he must give up his rights (to be selfish and self oriented) and a women must give up her rights (to be selfish and self oriented) in her willingness to be a helper and not the head. Its mutual selflessness.
      Click here to reply to this post

Read More Feedback

Post Feedback
We would like to post your feedback, but please keep your feedback short and clean. All feedback will be reviewed before it is posted. We encourage healthy debating but will not accept feedback with personal attacks. Commenting on a person's public statements, actions and writings is not considered a personal attack. Please limit your feedback to less than 750 words. Comments written in ALL CAPS will not be posted.

All fields are required. Your age and state will be posted on the site, but your personal information will NOT. If you would like your name to be posted with your feedback, you must include it in your feedback text.

First Name:
Last Name:
Email Address:
City:
State: OR Country:
Age:
Feedback Title:
Your Feedback
(no HTML):
Save my information for next time.



Notice: By entering your email address, you agree to join the
Worldview Weekend email alert system.



Worldview Weekend
Family Reunion
Branson, Missouri
April 23, 24, 25, 2010
Worldview Weekend
Training Institute
Memphis/Collierville, TN
April 9th & 10th, 2010