Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:37:36 PM |
Age 31, MO |
Noebel only addresses what most thinking people already know, the falacy of Marxist and Communist economic and political thought. He points out that Campolo is sadly mistaken, and is leading young Christians astray. But is this the deepest danger in Campolo's agenda? Isn't it instead the luring of hearts away from a focus on and discovery of Jesus Himself? Yes, Sider and Campolo are wrong about the technical details involved in bringing relief to the poor and oppressed. But far more worse, they're wrong about what our relationship with Jesus is all about, wrong about His calling on our lives, wrong about what is most important to carry in our hearts to that last-day encounter at the throne of God. I read the article title with interest, but the article itself with growing disappointment. Unless such issues are approached from the point of view of a lover-of-Jesus, and not from a I've-got-the-right-economic-theology stance, all our time is wasted. Unless relationship with Jesus is the core and purpose of the heart, a conservative evangelical thinker is just as lost and pointless as a marxist-liberation-theology proponent. Take heed to the heart, not the methods.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:32:13 PM |
Age 19, MN |
My gosh people. Those who say that Dr. Noebel should have identified what capitalism and socialism have learned nothing from history and probably didn't even read the whole essay. He did identify what socialism and capitalism is. Second of all, Jesus did say that we should sell all that we have and follow him, but guess what, how can we help the poor if we do that. He was saying that to his disciples when he was alive, if they were to go with him, it was to learn from him. Then you must also understand why the early Christians had to pull their resources together: because of the persecution from the Roman Empire! Keep things in their historical and social context. Americans are the most generous people in the world. We have given billions of dollars to help feed Africa and fight AIDS. We gave aid to tsunami victims. Yes both economic systems are fallen, but, to quote Winston Churchill: The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 10:53:35 AM |
Age 59, KS |
I don't know where to begin but first I wish everyone would stop using right wing and left wing labels. Ideas are either good or bad and to put other labels on them shortens the debate to a point of nonsense.
Then I might ask.....was Jesus a capitalist? "Sell everything and follow me" seems a familiar refrain. Are the wealthy oil companies concerned about the poor of the world? Or, how about the market speculators who make a fortune on the uptic of gasoline and oil prices? Do they care about the 60 year old woman who works for minimum wage? Would Jesus care about her?
Our great nation tried to seek a balance at one time. One where good Christians shared the Gospel but also tried to live the Gospel.
Now, for some reason, there is polarization at the Christian level. Right wing Christians vs. Left wing Christians. Something has gone awry here, don't you think?
There will always be poor in ours and all other societies. There will be the old and the sick. There will also be the wealthy and all the in-betweens. God's Love as spelled out in the New Testament is the only answer to all our problems.
I have noticed that very wealthy people are often concerned about having to share their wealth. Nobody gets wealthy in a vacuum. Well, maybe those who inherit it but not those who actually accumlated it. It's only money and one thing for sure....nobody will take the wealth with them when they die.
I'm all for capitalism and wealth creation but I'm also for realizing that with wealth comes even more responsibility for society. Job creation is one avenue for the wealthy to share. Probably the best one too.
Some folks want to fit the Gospels into their way of thinking. I've only realized one message from them...."For God so Loved the world........" What did Christ say about the greatest of all commandments....Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself? Hmmm!
Is it all that difficult?
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- oil companies
| Posted On: 02/20/08 06:55:18 PM | | Age 46, IL |
Yes, the oil companies care about the 60 year old woman on minimum wage by making sure she has a viable fuel to heat her home, and a viable fuel for her transportation, and fuel for goods and services to be transported in our economy so she can have a job. I thank God for oil companies that have taken big risks to provide a fuel that makes my life so much better. If not for oil companies I would have to hitch up my horse and ride in the -10 degrees to get home. Instead I am going to drive home in my heated truck. Why don't they teach economics in public school anymore?
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- Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/03/07 11:29:36 AM | | Age 44, PA |
Nice balanced view. Full blown capitalism will devour us just as fast as full blown Communisism. I don't care for Campolo, but I do see the heartlessness in the Body of Christ when covetetness (capitalism) is overemphesized and the poor are neglected. I would feel more comfortable giving my money to the poor through the government if I didn't realize that most will be stolen by the government. However, greed has placed healthcare out of reach of many middleclass people and the number grows every day. I truley believe that too much participation with government is what Jesus called the leven of Herod.
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- Quick pointer...
| Posted On: 03/02/07 08:04:24 PM | | Age 19, MN |
Captitalism, according to Dr. Noebel (I've heard him use this definition)is the "free exchange of goods and services". Now, the issue to keep in mind is that capitalism allows greater distribution of wealth since it creates competition to try and sell their things at a higher quality/cheaper price level. Was Jesus a capitalist, you ask? Well...in one sense yes, he was. Socialism (to it's core) is the govt. having all the economic power, including money, property, etc. Charity is, by far, more difficult to accomplish when the govt. has all the money. It is far easier in a capitalistic society, where the economic power is distributed, to do that from a purely physical standpoint. Now, don't get me wrong, I think we're probably both on the same page, so I'll just state that I don't think that Dr. Noebel is trying to promote capitalism over giving/charity. I think what he's trying to show is that since we are to bring our worldview to bear in the culture (just like anyone, including atheists, New Agers, etc.), that includes having a proper biblical worldview in economics, which is, of course, heavily under attack in today's intellectual and media power cirlces (on the whole). And Dr. Noebel has to show why capitalism is far more biblical than socialism to Christians, since there are Christians (or those who claim to be Christians), such as Tony Campolo, who promote socialism. Have a great day and God Bless!!
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- Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:32:02 PM | | Age 59, IL |
Dear age 59, KS; Please forgive me, my friend... but it pains me to tell you that you are missing the main point that causes most of us here on the right to do battle against the beliefs of the left. That is that "way too many of the ideas from the left wind up hurting the very people that they are intended to help". If it was just a matter of differing oppinions of how to get things done... then I would totally agree with you. Tragically, it is ABSOLUTELY not. In Him, scott.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 10:46:06 AM |
Age 47, WA |
Great editorial!
Liberals like Campolo just love to feel good about themselves at the expense of others. Raising taxes in order to fund their wealth redistribution schemes makes them feel like they are doing something about poverty but in reality, accomplishes nothing but increasing it.
Strange, but I don't remember Jesus saying anything about starting a government program to feed the poor. I do remember him instructing US to do so. And by the way, I also remember the admonishment stating that "if you don't work, you don't eat."
Socialism is the Devil's religion. Campolo is his bishop.
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 09:14:05 AM |
Age 42, MN |
Thank you Dr. Nobel! Jim Wallis spoke at Bethel College/Seminary last fall and got a standing ovation from the students and it was reported as more of an "alter call" to join his movement. Our Christian youth are being very deceived by this group and I deeply thank you for alerting us parents to what our children are being exposed to. I appreciated your facts and quotes linking them to communism. It is a very helpful article to pass on to students I know at Bethel.
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- Re: Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 04:24:16 PM | | Age 70, MN |
My Youthgroup back in highschool made trips to Winnona Lake, Ind. to attend the annual Youth For Christ International summer week-long meetings. Most of the leaders of todays evangelical and mission groups were speakers. Tony Compolo was one of them and at that time, he seemed true to AUTHENIC EVANGELICALISM. He seemed like a strong sold-out-to-Christ man of God who faithfully used the Word of God to win many young people to Christ and inspire many of us to dedicate our lives to follow Christ. Obviously and sadly, he has "left his first love". Exactly, how it happened we don't know but this should be a warning to us all to stay close to the Lord, or we too could be enticed away and follow another Christ. World History is our school-master regarding Communisim. The Bible doesn't advocate it for us to follow today. Also, I can site our former Church Moderator who worked with me to invite a well known marriage seminar speaker, several Creation speakers, etc., to teach at our church while all the time he was seeing other women and later divorced his wife. Today, he denies that t the Bible is truth, and questioned his grandaughter about did she really believe the "myth" about Jonah and the fish?
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 08:45:11 AM |
Age 38, IL |
I can only say I'm not surprised. I am often lured in by good article titles only to find myopic rants. What Dr. Noebel fails to own is that all of the examples he uses to show the evils of socialism come from ATHIESTIC communist (if not Totalitarian) regimes. I don't think Godless capitalism would yield (or is yielding) any better results. He also fails to define the terms capitalism and socialism in order to look intelligently about the pro's and con's of both man-made, fallen economic systems. Such an inquirey might point to the need for redeemed people to use thier wealth to help others in need (See Matthew 23 and Acts 2). The goals or socialism are consistent with the teaching of Jesus and the behavior of the early church. The mechanisms of socialist government have failed miserably. Free market capitalism seems to do a much better job at building wealth and motivating individual workers. However, the "least of these" often get lost in the dust. That happens when personal wealth is the highest goal. I don't think Jesus would say an economic system that survives on greed is a great way to go. At the same time, an economic system that survives on forced charity is not too helpful either. How about voluntary socialism within a free market economy. i.e. God's people selling all that they have, giving to the poor and following Jesus? The jab against Wallis' commune and holding everything in common is a jab at the early church itself. Can we please get off the agendas and have an intelligent conversation instead of pandering to a constituency you want to sell books to?
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/02/07 07:25:15 AM |
Age 54, WV |
If Compolo believes that God is for the "oppressed and poor" but is against the "strong and powerful," how will God deal with the "oppressed and poor" when they become the "strong and powerful?"
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APOSTLES OF ANTICHRIST
| Posted On: 03/02/07 03:37:23 AM |
Age 51, OH |
I can't believe David Noebel referred to Tony Campolo as a "Christian Evangelist", in light of what he himself reported!
A few years ago, I personally attended a Campolo lecture at Regent University in Virginia Beach, where Campolo said, and I quote: "Jesus Christ IS THE DARK SIDE OF HUMANITY". I still have a tape recording of that lecture.
Jesus Christ, in Revelation 2:2, praised the Ephesian church, saying, "[T]hou canst not beat them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars[....]"
Campolo does have a gospel that he preaches, but it doesn't come from above.
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Reds under the bed
| Posted On: 03/02/07 02:42:56 AM |
Age 43, UK |
For those of us who live outside America this seems once again to be slightly idolatrous. Capitalism, Free Enterprise and America may all be good things in some people's opinion, but they are not God. And worshipping anything less than God is idolatrous.
I'm fascinated that Acts 5:1-4 shows that private property is ordained by God, when the early church held everything in common. How about Matthew 19:16-22? Are we not all "Rich young rulers" in the West? Or was Jesus just speaking to one guy and not to us?
Marxism is dead and led to disaster. We're not Marxist in Western Europe. However, neither do we equate Christianity with capitalism.
Jesus calls us to be disciples first, and everything else second.
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- I hear you...
| Posted On: 03/02/07 08:28:25 PM | | Age 19, MN |
...but understand that being a disciple of Christ means following Him and His Word, the Bible. Probe.org has a great article articulating the reason for a biblical view in economics, which, I think correctly, argues that private property, distribution of economic power, etc. is a good, biblical thing. Now, as far as Acts is concerned, the difference between socialism (private property being abolished, economy being centralized, and the wealth being redistributed to help the poor, except often at their own expense) and sharing/charity (giving from one's OWN pocket to help out, like what churches do at say, Union Gospel Mission, like the one down in my state's capitol) is that the church people voluntarily gave their own possessions and willingly shared. We have no problem with this (in fact, a recent book by a well known person indicated that religious conservatives give more in America than those who are not religious, even though they often make less money). Anyway, also keep in mind that whoever has the money and the guns has control...and if it's under the control a few people (no matter what worldview they hold), it can be dangerous. That is the problem of socialism, the power residing in a few people. It works in theory if you assume man is basically good by nature, but if man isn't good by nature....well that changes the whole equation. Have a great day and God Bless!!
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Re: Tony Campolo: The Marxist Delusion and a Christian Evangelist
| Posted On: 03/01/07 10:54:58 PM |
Age 42, TX |
I see a bit of incongruity in Campolo's ideas. From your article: "Campolo, for example, never quotes Acts 5:1-4, probably because there the concept of private property is favorably mentioned. Campolo is, at heart, an anti-capitalist (142)." And yet he copyrighted his book, didn't he? What, no public domain? It seems to me that these people who are supposedly anti-capitalist should be the first to give up their personal property rights and other benefits of capitalism. They should make a real stand for what they believe, right? Walk the walk, don't just talk the talk. I won't hold my breathe.
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