Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/04/07 05:47:35 PM |
Age 51, NY |
Excellent summary. In my opinion however the point about 6 days creation is too flippant and you misquote Matthew 19:4 which reads (KJV):
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/03/07 02:40:45 PM |
Age 48, AR |
I would suggest you make an addition to item #19, when asking about the Lord's Supper, ask them, specifically, how many times a year they celebrate it. Very few Churches celebrate it more than once a year, if that many. I believe Scripture indicates that it should be served - as a regular reminder - on a fairly frequent basis. 1 Cor. 11:26 teaches that we are proclaiming the Lord's death, as often as we take His Supper. If we seldom take His Supper, we seldom proclaim His death, in this way.
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/03/07 12:36:59 PM |
Age 53, VA |
I agree with your listing, but I would like to point out that we need to let God place us in the church He desires us to be in. When I was born again, I was in a major denominational church that had many non-Biblical veiwpoints. God told me He wanted me and my husband to stay in that body and teach, mentor, pray and model a Biblical life within this body. It would have been much easier to run away to a more Biblical church, but the Lord wanted us to be "missionaries". After ten years, my husband was transferred to a different state, and we moved into a wonderful biblical church that fits each one of your questions. The main point of our lives should be to follow and please Jesus, and let Him make us into His image, however He chooses to do it. We are to be light in a dark world.
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/03/07 12:21:58 PM |
Age 64, LT |
What is question 18?
I doubt that many pastors would cooperate with such an ideological bashing. The questions seem to me to be geared to the spiritual pride of the writer and questioner ("thank God I am not like the errant") rather than an honest attempt to gather information.
I will try the questions out on the pastors and seminary students that I know, and get back to you.
Tomas Moore
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/03/07 11:56:38 AM |
Age 29, PA |
1. I suppose we can just disregard Christ's earthly ministry, which consisted largely of healing people, feeding people, listening to people...
and Scripture -- James claimed that true religion was "This, to look after orphans and widows in their distress...")
2. What about easily accesible synonyms like 'be sorry,' or 'ask forgiveness.'
3. Here, I'd like to point out that it isn't the pastor's job to give the salvation message. It's EVERYONE'S job. Isn't it?
4. Hrmm. If your heart is turned by God toward God before you choose God, as so many believe, I'd say it would be pretty easy, considering you're predisposed.
5. Aren't people supposed to do this in their private time with their friends, who trust them because of years of experience and love...?
6. Isn't reaching the lost -- focussing on them-- the last and most emphatic thing Christ said to do before he acended? Isn't it the very reason he came? -- something about "coming to seek and save the lost," 'well people don't need a physician,' and the importance of the one lost sheep over the 99 who were safe in the fold.
7. If you're church is for saved folk, why is your pastor giving a salvation message?
8. I suppose meaty means intellectually elite and educated? What of Christ's use of parables?
9. Once again intellectual elitism rears its head.
10. This assumes theology is NEVER relevant *eye roll*
11. Fun and games competing with MTV? Because sucking jello through a straw and spitting it into an empty Pepsi bottle is cooler than The Real World, any day. The fun-and-games model has been 'out' in youth ministry circles for at least the last ten years.
12. Why would a church scedule a program for something that isn't a focus? See: #7)
13. Churches with no growth model tend to be churches with little or no consistent evangelism by their members.
14. The poor are only ever hungry? And isn't this meeting needs/problems etc??
15. I thought the core was the gospel.
16. literal 6 day creation:Origen didn't believe in it. Justin Martyr didn't St. Syprian didn't, neither did Clement of Alexandria. Or St. Augustine. Or Charles Ryrie. Somehow this didnt prevent them from being highly respected (even today) among fundamentalist Christian circles.
20. What of the Corinthian church, whose immorality and immaturity were unrivaled in the ancient world, yet who were referred to as brothers and sisters in Christ by Paul?
21. A better Question: HOW does your church excercise church discipline?
22. This might be a good time in history to ask if they also fill out background clearances for child abuse. Once again, I suppose believing in the gospel [#3] isn't really enough to go and serve God. Jesus asked his disciples a very detailed questionaire before he invited them to drop their daily lives and follow him, right?
23.More detail here? Once again, I thought the essentials of the faith were the saving work of Christ as YOU'VE defined in #3.
Perhaps we need to add something here about being Republican and stance on abortion and...
24. I have a number of problems here: We're assuming that every church has the financial capacity to meet in an actual building with an actual sanctuary, for one, and the money to buy accesories, for another.
Interestingly enough, I thought the central focus of the church should be the RESURRECTED Lord.
In that case, I suppose this means you've no objection to the RC policy of Crucifixes and Stations of the Cross? i suppose also this justifies the Mass, which is the celebration of the work of the cross?
In fact, while I think about it, perhaps you'd do well to consider advising people to convert to RCism. They meet all the requirements as per this questionaire.
Truth: This kind of thinking puts me in mind of the pharisees.
Click here to reply to this post
|
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/05/07 10:46:13 AM | | Age 64, LT |
Good points, but you might want to run them through your spell checker brfore posting,,,
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/03/07 05:46:04 PM | | Age 39, FL |
Also, I hope you find a good church that God says is for you and... the author used scripture to support all of his facts. Where are yours? The Bible is the ONLY source of truth. Thanks!
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/06/07 09:13:56 PM | | Age 30, PA |
Please note that of the 23 questions (#18 is missing) only 5 reference scripture.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/03/07 05:42:39 PM | | Age 39, FL |
In response to your response #5- If the pastor and/or church never present messages about sin, righteousness or judgement, how will anyone that is unsaved ever know that they need to be saved? If the only time sin, righteousness or judgement is only talked about among your friends and loved ones, unless they are unsaved, how will anyone ever become aware of their need for salvation? Also, if you only wait to talk about it when you feel comfortable, I can almost promise that you will almost never talk about it. I don't believe you have gotten the author's point. These are questions to ask a pastor of a church when consider whether or not to go to it yourself and to find out what is preached/believed by the body. I believe that the author is right on.
Click here to reply to this post
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/02/07 02:17:12 PM |
Age 51, AR |
"20. Can a person who is living in a persistent lifestyle of sin inherit eternal life? Sinners can certainly be forgiven, but practicing sinners cannot inherit eternal life (I John 3:8,9)"
AMEN. It's amazing how modern theology created the false paradigm of people supposedly born again who have no power over sin and no witness of the Holy Spirit within.
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/02/07 01:54:12 PM |
Age 37, GA |
I would say that this list shows that you are still holding on to certain traditions of man. Consider that Martin Luther reformed the Catholic faith, and did NOT take Christians back to Biblical origins. Much of even the traditional church hangs on to Catholic traditions because they've never really thought about them biblically. First, where in scripture do you find our current church model of a one-man-show? The New Testament model only allows for two offices: Elder and Deacon, but several MINISTRIES to be filled by those elders and deacons (apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teacher). 1 Cor 14 gives a good indication that it wasn't a one-man show. These assemblies do exist, but they are VERY hard to find. Finally, regarding your need to focus on an idol (Q. 24 - "the cross should be the central focus"), will a bronze serpent do? This is of course tongue-in-cheek, but Christ established nothing save the bread and wine as a remembrance of him. If you have to have a cross in your church, you need to examine the idol you've set up in your heart.
Click here to reply to this post
|
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/28/07 11:28:09 AM | | Age 32, ME |
Amen to your reply. Though I think the authors questions are right on your feedback is a terrific ending summary. The model for the Church is found all through the New Testament. Instead of study other churchs for what "works" we need to be studying the New Testament for what should be.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/04/07 06:39:53 AM | | Age 52, VA |
Good point. In 2 Kings 18, Hezekiah had the bronze serpent destroyed because the people began burning incense to it.
Click here to reply to this post
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/02/07 12:59:20 PM |
Age 36, IN |
I think overall your list is a good thing. The issue I would have to disagree with is #24 "Must have a cross". You should do a study of the cross and check out its origins. Yes, I understand He died on the cross for me, but I don't think it's the cross that is important. It is that He died for me and rose again. We are to remember His death til he comes, not how he died. In fact the emphasis placed on the cross itself concerns me as it seems directly opposed to what God said in Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth". The church needs to rethink its icons.
Click here to reply to this post
|
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/02/07 11:10:55 AM |
Age 51, WI |
Number one on the list should be to find a church that keeps all ten commandments. Including the one that says the sabbath is on saturday the true seventh day of the week. Which a lot of people do not know. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. (Mark 2:27)God has spcifically forbidden men to change His law by deletions or additions. This commandment was changed by man. You can search the Bible till you are blue in the face and you will not find anywhere where it says the sabbath should be changed to sunday the first day of the week.
Click here to reply to this post
|
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/04/07 06:51:00 AM | | Age 52, VA |
Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses and replaced it with the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2). Matthew 12:8 says that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. His finised work on the cross alows us to rest in him 7 days a week and not just on one day. That's why the Apostle Paul admonished those that would require us to adhere to a special Sabbath day (Col. 2:16). You are free to set aside Saturday if you wish. But, you are not free to impose that day on other Christians.
Click here to reply to this post
- Re: Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/08/07 10:36:21 AM | | Age 44, MN |
The Law of Moses (otherwise known as God's Word (Jer. 23:29, Psalm 119:142), is the same Word of God's Messiah, i.e. Christ's Law, there can be no variance. God's Word never changes, this is foundational to understand; if God's Word was replaced or changed, then the Law Giver has also changed or been replaced. This contradicts the Word of God when He says that He never changes (Mal. 3:6). This also contradicts history. The only Word of God that Jesus quotes are the books of Moses, the Prophets, and the Writings (Luke 16:31, 24:27, 44). The new covenant is spoken of by the Prophets and specifically by Jeremiah (Jer. 31:31), but the stipulations of this covenant, contrasted with the Sinai covenant, remains unchanged (Jer. 31:33), just as the Law Giver Himself remains unchanged. This is why we can trust (have faith in) God that He at some future point in time will not change His standards for holy and righteous living or for salvation.
Secondly, fulfill doesn't mean to eliminate. The word means to 'fill up full.' Consider Matthew 5:17-19.
Here we see that fulfill is set in opposition to abolish, which would imply establish. Jesus, our example, followed the Law perfectly, and we are saved through His sacrifice, however, the Law as part of God's Word can never be eliminated (John 10:35). Our loving response to His sacrifice is to find out what He wants us to do, and do it. We find His 'to do list' in the books of Moses (Rom. 7:12).
Also, "Heaven and earth" passing away is equal to "all is accomplished." Some people want to make "all is accomplished" equal to His death on the cross, but Jesus disabuses us of this notion. Jesus goes on to teach us about teaching and keeping (doing) the commandments. The hard work here is in messing up the clear statements of the Master.
Reading this passage and coming to the conclusion that there are two different Laws; one invalidating the other is a good example of prooftexting. Galatians 6:2 speaks to the proper understanding of the Greek word 'nomos' (which is used to translate the Hebrew word torah in the Septuagint) as teaching or instruction. It can also mean command; therefore, we do (fulfill) the commands (law) of Christ, when we follow God's Word (Law or Torah) in bearing our neighbor's burdens. Only by the stipulations (instructions) in the written Word (Law) can we fulfill this obligation according to the Messiah's instruction.
Lastly, the Sabbath is an appointed time (Leviticus 23:2); literally an appointment with God. God sets aside specific times for us to meet with Him, where we are reminded of what He has done, are doing, and will do for us. This day is special, like a weekly anniversary. The Sabbath is also a "rehearsal," because it is to remind us of prophetic things to come. If you get the wrong day, woe to you, the books are closed (Isa. 56:2, 6, 66:23). If Jesus instituted a different day, that would render Him a false-Messiah (Lawless one) (1 John 3:4).
The argument of Messiah being the Lord of the Sabbath with the intent of saying that He can set aside or transgress the Sabbath without disqualifying Himself as the Messiah, is anachronistic. In Matthew 12:8 Jesus argues from the Law (vs. 5) and its case precedence (Hosea 6:6), using the Law as the foundation for His argument. If He were to do away with the eternal Law of God and implement one of His own, then this process of engagement with His detractors would be unnecessary. You should find that Jesus is the consummate Lawyer, not transgressor.
It is no sin to keep Sunday as a day to the LORD. There is nothing wrong with going to church on Sunday.
But Sunday is not the Sabbath.
One day the returning Messiah of Israel will impose the proper observance of His Father's appointed times (Mic. 4:2). Why not start imitating God today (Eph. 5:1)?
Click here to reply to this post
Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/02/07 08:54:52 AM |
Age 71, MO |
When I read question # 19. When you distribute the Lord's Supper, do you emphasize the need to examine yourself? Paul did (I Cor.11:27-32).
My mind went to:
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Therefore I suggest adding one more question and numbering it # 20
20. When you collect the offering, do you emphasize the need to examine yourself? (Jesus said to. Mat 5:23-24)
This may be too much to ask any Pastor. But we are living in a day in which some Christians accuse others of not being good Christians because they do not want big government welfare programs.
But the big government welfare programs are not a Biblical World View
The big government welfare programs take away my choosing how much to give. The big government welfare programs take away my cheerfulness.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Click here to reply to this post
|
- Re: Re: How to Find a Good Church
| Posted On: 02/02/07 02:03:05 PM | | Age 63, OH |
Dear brother you present a very valid point here and I thank you for bringing it forth. One could offer another point in addition to this considering government welfare. Some could argue that if the church had taken care of the poor as it is commanded by Christ, then no government welfare program would have been necessary. Jesus says in Luke 6:20 "Blessed are the poor, for yours IS the kingdom of God. vs 24 "But woe to you who are abounding in material resources, because you have that solace and cheer which comes from a prosperous state of things and have nothing left to desire."(Wuest). If you stand in your church parking lot does your church look poor or is it abounding in material resources. You would think the struggle of any church following Christ would be to give away their material resources to the poor,so that they could become poor; since Jesus tells us that theirs IS the kingdom of God. Is not the kingdom of God what we all desire. IT IS WITHIN THE POWER OF THE U.S. CHURCH TO BRING THIS NATION BACK TO GOD ANYTIME. All they need to do is give away their goods to the poor and the church would be IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD BY MEANS OF THEIR BEING POOR. Jesus says when you give to the poor you are giving to him. How could anybody lose by giving to Jesus. Notice it says give to the poor not some rich preacher. Lou
Click here to reply to this post
Read More Feedback
|
|
|
