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Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
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Where are the elders that guard the flock?
Posted On: 03/14/08 03:19:33 PM Age 64, TX
I attend a small church and we have four deacons in our church.At a recent business meeting our Pastor ask us to rent the now empty parsonage to a couple who attended our church,this was the pastors relatives.We as a church wanted to help them out so we voted to rent the house to them.At our next business meeting the pastor informed us that this couple would be getting married in a few weeks.The couple had been living there for about 4 months right next to the church without any of the church members knowing that they were not married.Only one deacon spoke up to say that he thought it was wrong and wouldnt have voted to let them have the house if he had of known they were not married.I think the other deacons should have spoke out againist this happening on the church property. But none would except for this one man.After all this parsonage sets on the church property and should be considered Holy Ground. What do you think about this issue? Carol
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A Sad Story, Often Repeated
Posted On: 02/01/08 09:40:33 AM Age 51, IL
Thank you Pastor Bob for tackling this difficult but essential topic. We have been attending a large evangelical church which if I gave the name most people would recognize it. A year ago the senior pastor who preached faithfully for 26 years retired. We were stunned and appalled to see that within just a few months, sermons from the pastoral staff began to become utterly unbiblical We brought this to the attention of the elders with gentleness and respect and were essentially ignored. The preaching has gotten thinner and thinner until it is now a textbook example of what Dr. Michael Horton recently called, "Christless Christianity." There is no credible preaching of sin, atonement, the wrath of God, and of course what is left is mainly therapeutic moral deism. What is so amazing and distressing is that the elders of this church -- many of whom, to make a long story short and to avoid identifying them, ought to know better, have completely ignored the repeated pleas of several of us and have abdicated their Biblical job of protecting the flock. They seem only to be interested in "keeping the business going" until the next senior pastor is chosen. We pray that the Lord will raise up elders who are willing to lead in truth and in doctrine and who will stand up to weak and unbiblical preaching and teaching.
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I'm an elder
Posted On: 01/21/08 07:59:16 PM Age 56, NE
I am one of three elders in a small church. Our pastor is one of the elders as well, first among equals. The main difference between us is that he has more formal training and is our full time staff. We all believe that it is our main job to protect the flock. We have had to discipline two men in the last few years and expel them from the membership. Sadly, they were welcomed with open arms at another “evangelical” church in town. One of them has a teaching ministry! No questions were ever asked of us concerning these men. We also had several families come into church who believed and were planning on introducing open theism. We didn’t force them to leave. We simply let them know that this heresy wouldn’t be tolerated and they needed to listen to the true teaching of God’s Word. They left of their own accord since they couldn’t gain any converts. We continually have visitors come who say they are looking for a Bible teaching church. The only problem is that they are more interested in a children’s ministry, choir, youth group or something else ahead of the teaching of the Word. I can state without fear of contradiction that in a town of 15,000 plus, with at least 40 churches, we are the only one teaching the Bible expositionally, without apology or any gimmicks. I know many of the people attending other churches that no longer hold fast to the Truth. They don’t want to make waves, offend or leave their friends, leave the comfort of what they’ve grown accustomed to, or have to actually confront the errors they know to be taking control of their church. Of course the leadership in these churches are pathetic. There is simply no excuse for allowing false and misleading teaching into their churches. They have disqualified themselves and it shows in many other areas. To give you an idea of why this sort of thing happens and to prove your point about businessmen being seen as qualified simply because they are businessmen, consider this. My pastor was at the business of an elder from another church and they got to talking about church doctrine. My pastor asked him what their church thought about election. After some thought he told my pastor that they were for it and thought that people should get out and vote. Gives some insight into why his church welcomed our disciplined members, is into Rick Warren, Promise Keepers, a woman pastor (called an Education Director but a pastor nonetheless) and whatever else is popular doesn’t it?
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Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
Posted On: 03/01/07 07:01:51 PM Age 38, PA
Great, great article - just what we are going through now with our church of six months. We believed they were biblical, sound, and mature. Then they hired a man to be in charge of all Chirstian Education who is currently getting his doctorate in Spiritual Formation - D.Min at Gordon-Conwell, which is completely Contemplative. After much research, we went through all the proper channnels but the pastors and elders simply say he is a "solid guy". I am having a hard time avoiding judgments -Did the leadership know what Spiritual Formation is and choose this guy on purpose, or were they unaware of this movement (this is how we approached them) but are now unwilling to believe this guy would actually apply his contemplative practices which he is now perfecting to the education of our youth? Is it possible that a professional pastor, who must be getting all the magazines and e-newsletters, is unaware of this stuff? And what should members of a church do if it is hijacked by an unbiblical movement (I recommend holding back the tithe checks and getting a copy of the bylaws)? Should a person inform other members who have no idea what's going on in the (vain) hope that they will understand the problem and care enough even to ask the leadership about it? Anyway, we really appreciate Pastor DeWaay's work!
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Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
Posted On: 02/19/07 01:26:00 PM Age 29, AE
I absolutely could not agree more. Two years ago, we had to move and joined a local church based solely on the name of the church, as we love and agree with the denominations beliefs (doctrines) and standards. However, we have been shocked to see a complete lack of adherence to the standards of holiness set forth in Gods Word, and to the qualifications set forth in the Bible for all overseers (elders, pastors, and so on). The church we have attended, unfortunately, does not even resemble the denomination which it claims to be affiliated with. It pains me to have been told by the elders of this church that it is okay to use foul language, that we cant be spiritual all the time, to find out that they were drinking and smoking (living a complete double-life) when out of town, and to see that they harbor pride in an almost unimaginable quantity. But what pains me even more is that, though all of these things have been brought to the attention to the pastor, nothing has been done to correct the situations aside from making the guilty parties apologize to a few select people that were involved by circumstance. I believe the Lord brought these situations to light to be corrected, but we, unfortunately, have an Eli spirit in many leadership positions in the church. Instead of correcting the wrongs, our pastor actually suggested that we take the denominations sign off the door so that we (who are concerned) could no longer expect him to live up to the standard that is set forth by our denomination! One of the biggest problems that contribute to this kind of lukewarm living and failure to lead as God intended is a wrong understanding of the grace of God. 1 Peter 2:16 tells us, Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Yet that is exactly what is happening in the church not just our denomination, but in the worldwide church of the Living God. Isaiah 26:10 says, Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the Lord. We have been shown grace, but very few learn righteousness. A right heart will lead to right living (not legalism, but holy living before God). A most important remedy for these elders that are failing to guard the flock (and the rest of the apostate church) is a second look at the original meaning and purpose of grace in the Word of God. Author John Bevere hits the nail on the head in his DVD teaching, Empowered by Grace, which can be found at: http://www.messengerintl.org/product.asp?id=DVDJ031. If you think yourself a Biblically educated person, I challenge you to get this video and evaluate it for yourself. As Mr. Bevere led us through Matthew Chapter 5, he points out something that was startling to me, because I could not believe I never recognized it before. I have heard so many Christians misuse the term grace simply to justify their lukewarm lifestyle and half-hearted commitment. But look at the Scriptures! Moses brought the Law, and Jesus brought Grace, right? But Jesus points out in Matthew 5 that under the law, murder and adultery are wrong; however under grace, even LOOKING at a woman in lust was the same as adultery, and just BEING ANGRY against your brother is equal to murder! Which are more strict? Clearly Jesus raised the standard, though He was bringing grace!! What a contradiction to what we have been taught! But thats because grace is not just a cover-up for evil. Grace is the force that empowers us to fulfill the command to be holy. I cannot urge you enough to get this video. It will change your world, and hopefully the world of the people around you who have been misled to believe that grace is just a cover-up for evil. Our elders would be fulfilling their role successfully if they had the relationship with God that they claimed to have. I pray you will all search this matter out for yourselves and be empowered by the knowledge of the full purpose of Gods grace.
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Well said
Posted On: 01/31/07 04:10:44 PM Age 60, VA
Well stated. As one who provides relational care and accountability for a number of pastors and elders, I concur with your article and your concern for the Body of Christ. Over the years I have raised the issue of doctrine, having the grace to lead (Rom 12:8), and the fact that an eldership is to represent the government of God here on earth to a much place in my list of qualifiers for eldership. All the ingredients are important, but if a man cannot stand up for the ways of God, he is not suitable for eldership. I have had to remove a few elders because of such issues. Let us pray for real elders to guard the flock in the future, and for sound qualified men who can sort through the details before setting them in, and who can follow up to deal with issues later. This is an area where where the Church is far away from what God intended for the oversight of the flock. We can argue about it at length. I would rather be about setting it straight.
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Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
Posted On: 01/31/07 02:55:22 PM Age 37, OH
As a pastor, I have mixed feelings regarding what was put forth in this article. As a youth pastor my feelings are mixed even more so... I have been criticized for some of the things that I have done (under the guise that what I was doing was not Biblical, when, in fact, what I was doing with our teens didn't meet someone's liking.) With that said, however, we need to stand strong on the TRUTH of scripture, NOT on our feelings, preferences, likes or dislikes. We CAN be culturally relevant without wavering on the absolutes of scripture. Go back and read 1 Timothy 5:17-18 -- it speaks of the Elder worthy of a double-portion (that EASILY describes an elder who has been called out to do the work of pastoral ministry full-time). That, of course, follows chapter 4 where Paul outlines the qualifications of an Elder -- funny, popularity wasn't one of the qualifications. The above posts were dead-on in that critique of the American church. IF what this lady saw truly was unbiblical (versus if she just didn't LIKE what was being done), then she SHOULD have rocked the boat. I don't discourage people questioning what I do, IF their motives really are right. Unfortunately in MANY churches across America (and within my own experience), people don't LIKE what the pastor is doing or flat out don't like the pastor and instead of going about things in a Biblical manner, they simply do all they can to discredit and throw out their pastor so that they can look for someone that they do like and who talks about and does the things they WANT him to do... hmmm... kind of reminds me of itching ears (2 Tim. 4:3), Paul cautioned the church regarding that, too!
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Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
Posted On: 01/31/07 05:49:41 AM Age 50, TX
This is a great subject. I believe it so important, and like anytime there is a problem in our physical body, we must not treat the symptom, but get at the root. The symptom we observe is weak elders, or leaders who are afraid or unable to stand up for the truth. The root problem is an unbiblical foundation. Acts 20:28 says it so well. It is addressing Elders, not pastors. There really is no such thing as a "Pastor" the way the Evangelical church defines one. The bible talks exclusively about elders who oversee and shepherd or feed the flock. Not once will you find shepherd used as a noun. It is always used as a verb except when referring to Jesus as our only Shepherd. I would challenge you to consider what the "Ekklesia" would be like if we only had elders, with no titles, no grand offices, but men who truly were "elder" in the truest since of the word, who were "apt to teach", took no ownership of "their" sheep, and followed Peters admonition: 1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. The pastoral institution is the biggest "Golden Calf" you will find in the evangelical church. It is filled with well meaning, dedicated men, but it is not built on the "Rock", the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ. Blessings Jack
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  1. Re: Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
    Posted On: 01/31/07 05:29:13 PMAge 54, IN
    It's amazing to me how quickly and easily we can be diverted from God's Word to what "seems right." The problem is not the elders, it's not the deacons, and it's not the Sunday school superintendant. The root cause of ALL of our local churche's problems lies behind the pulpit. Everything rises and falls on leadership and you cannot have more than one leader making final decisions regarding the local church...especially when it comes to the proclaiming of sound doctrine. When the pulpit's right the entire world falls in line. God is still "seeking A man" (Ez 22:30)Someone to make up the hedge and stand in the gap for the land (or church for the sake of this conversation)that He might not destroy it. Will He find one today or come up empty...again?
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    1. Re: Re: Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
      Posted On: 02/02/07 05:58:30 PMAge 50, TX
      I think that man has already come, and his name is Jesus. With all due respect for the men that call themselves pastors, study hard the scriptures, not mans traditions. You will not find a pattern for one man behind a pulpit making all of the decisions in the local church. That is precisely why there are so many problems. Paul always referred to elders{plural}not singular. Gods ways are not the American corporation model with a CEO and board. It is co-equal elders responding to the Holy Spirit. Once again look at what Paul and Peter said directly addressing elders. Both said essentially the same thing: Oversee and feed the flock. Jesus said leaders are not to rule, not lord over, not exercise authority. The first shall be last. Blessings Jack
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      1. Re: Re: Re: Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
        Posted On: 03/12/07 12:48:26 PMAge 54, IN
        Check out Revelation 1:12-20
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      2. Re: Re: Re: Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
        Posted On: 02/23/07 01:22:40 AMAge 45, FL
        Brother, you are right on. Through a series of events and Bible study, God is leading a group of us to start a true elder lead church in our area. Elders were not deacons nor elected as such. They were the "pastors" of the early New Testament churches! When my dad, who has been a pastor for over 40 years began to objectively study the Scriptures, this was so plainly understood by him, as well as myself. I encourage the book "Biblical Eldership" subtitled "An Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadship". It was written by Alexander Strauch who examines the Scriptures thoroughly in this matter. Or just study the Bible objectively. As to the relevance to the above initial article, the true elders should actually be the spiritual leaders and primary teachers/preachers of the church. They should hold fast the Word of God, and should hold one another accountable. They should meet all of the qualifications of I Tim. 3 and Titus 1, including "Apt to teach". Note: Paul instructed to ordain "elders" in every city. The council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 involved the Apostles and elders from the church at Jerusalem. Also Acts 11:30 & 21: 18 denote elders at this church. Acts 20:17 mentions elders at the Ephesian church. In Titus 1:5 Paul instructs Titus to ordain elders in every city, then gives the qualifications for this office transitioning to the word "Bishop" (overseer) obviously refering to the same office. In I Peter 5:1-4, Peter refers to himself as an elder, then adminishes the church elders to feed the flock and take oversight. Nowhere is it even hinted that a group of elders answered to a "pastor" at any of these local churches. We could go on and on. But I can't find any definitive Scripture stating that any one church was "pastored" by one man. I know this seems "weird" to many of us because of what we've always known. It is awesome to simply study the Scriptures to see what God says! May God bless.
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Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
Posted On: 01/30/07 03:21:36 PM Age 53, OK
It looks like to me as I read the bible that it is the Aposltes that lay hands on men and set them in as elders, not pastors, If that is right, could part of the proplem be not having Aposltes in the church government? Just a thought. Blessings Doug
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  1. Re: Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
    Posted On: 01/31/07 09:12:35 AMAge 64, AZ
    Brother, it sounds like you are involved in the Apostolic Movement which is unbiblical. There are no apostles today. I hope you are not following C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Chuck Pierce and that crowd who have been proven to be false prophets. The answer to the elder problem is not another layer of church authority, but rather a change in heart of those responsible for the flock, that they would not be so enamored and arrogant in their position that they will not listen to the underwatchmen in the church. Also, the problem of putting the pastor on a pedestal or the pastor having too much authority with no accountability. The question really is one of accountability.
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    1. Apostles and Prophets
      Posted On: 03/01/07 12:41:31 AMAge 38, CO
      While I have no problem understanding the idea that there may be modern Apostles and Prophets, I do have a problem with Doug Sheets and Chuck Pierce claiming to be prophets while pandering a theology that is not checked against the new covenant of Jesus Christ and all He accomplished on the Cross. The fact is, most of what they preach is Old Testament, Old Covenant theology. They prey on those seeking to be affirmed in their misery instead of lifted in their joy. Shame on them and all of those who support their self-proclaimed prophetic wisdom. The wisdom of man is folly compared to the Wisdom of the Lord.
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    2. Missing apostles?
      Posted On: 01/31/07 04:04:19 PMAge 60, VA
      Brother, it would be good if you looked at some scripture. There are the original 12 apostles (we won't haggle about Judas), then a list of ascension apostles (they were noted and named after the twelve. The list is impressive. It is just that someone decided that after the twelve there were no other. We have Paul AND Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Sylvanus and Timothy as well (1Thess 1:1 along with 1Thess 2:6), James the Lord's brother (Gal 1:19), Epaphroditus (Phil 2:25 the work messenger is the same word used for apostle in other places), Titus and a few unnamed brothers (2Cor 8:16-24 the same word - messengers is apostolos), and others. If you believe the Scripture are divinely inspired, then you will have to bow to those scriptures. YOu would also have to assess Eph 4:11 and following in the same light. Since the word "until" is used noting a reached state of the Body of Christ, and we would have to say that we have not reached that state yet, so we are still in need of all those functions noted for that to happen. Not just pastors, teachers, and evangelists, but also apostles and prophets. If you have been ingrained with teaching and tradition that opposes that, I can understand your dillema. Tradition is more powerful than the Word of God. You can find that noted in several referrences.
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      1. Re: Missing apostles?
        Posted On: 02/01/07 04:46:48 PMAge 58, VA
        Tradition is more powerful than the Word of God? Do you really think that? Heavens! If we lean on tradition it can hinder us believing the Word of God, but it is in no way more powerful than the Word of God. We mix the Word with many things and thus we water down the Word of God. But never is tradition more powerful! You add to scripture.
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Re: Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
Posted On: 01/30/07 03:00:55 PM Age 49, PA
Elders, both ruling elders and teaching elders or pastors, need the gift of discernment. Dr. Lovelace points out, in his book Dynamics of Spiritual Life: An Evangelical Theology of Renewal, that we need a depth of awareness of our own sin (because most people in America perceive themselves as moral people) and depth of awareness of the holiness of God. Also elders and pastors may be guilty, either in the past or present, themselves of being a part of organizations or groups that are not godly. That makes it difficult to discern what is godly in today's culture. A third reason is a lack of Biblical knowledge both in leadership and within congregations. No wonder we are not seeing spiritual renewal in America. Christians both elders and disciples need to humble ourselves before a holy and righteous God in repentance.
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