Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/11/07 01:17:40 PM |
Age 63, OH |
I enjoyed your letter brother. I have many questions about this issue. While on one hand there are almost no transitional forms in the fossil record which God has left us; there is also a very large deposit from the 1st fossils to man. All evidence in the earth seems to point to man being created a long time after the 1st lifeforms. I have seen this with my own eyes. While the scriptures state that God created the Heavens and the Earth, and the great creatures of the sea and birds. It does not say God created the animals on land but it says let the earth bring forth animals. It appears to me that both science and the church do not have a very good view of the truth on this issue; but that it is going to require a lot more searching for truth on someones part to find the truth on this issue. The one thing that we know is that the Lord Jesus Christ created everything that there is and nothing exists that He did not create. I would value your thoughts on this issue. --- Newton
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- Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/13/07 10:22:19 AM | | Age 52, MI |
When the scientific data is correctly interpreted, beginning with a Christian worldview, there really is very little conflict between science and the Bible. If you've never read any of the excellent creationist material available today, I would suggest that you start with www.AnswersinGenesis.org, or any of the other excellent creationist web sites.
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Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/11/07 12:24:08 PM |
Age 30, IN |
Just wanted to point out the glaring non-sequitur in the last paragraph of the letter. Noebel claims that Darwinian evolution is in some way responsible for great "death and destruction." Granting, for sake of argument, that this claim is true, how does it even come close to lending support to the claim that Darwinian evolutionary theory is FALSE? "Theory X led to death and destruction; therefore X is false" is a blatant fallacy (consider: replace "X" with "the scientific theories that made development of nuclear weapons possible"). Of course, we shouldn't grant the claim in the first place that Darwinian evolution is somehow responsible for the great evils of the 20th century. For the theory makes claims ONLY about what IS the case, not about what OUGHT TO BE the case. That people like Hitler and Stalin took Darwinism to license their actions shows only that they were susceptible to believing arguments as fallacious as those Noebel employed in his final paragraph. They moved from "the fittest survive" to "therefore, the fittest OUGHT to survive" (clearly fallacious - and something that has nothing to recommend it within the theory of evolution); Noebel moved from "Theory X was involved in Bad Things" to "Therefore, X is false" (also clearly fallacious).
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- Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/23/07 04:20:21 AM | | Age 50, WI |
Your summary statement says "Noebel moved from 'Theory X was involved in Bad Things' to 'Therefore, X is false' (also clearly fallacious)." You got the whole thing backwards! Noebel actually started out showing that evolution is false and without evidence. Then and only then did he proceed to mention that evolution (Theory X) is responsible for "Bad Things." We all know (I think) that the fact that evolution has given license for men to do evil says nothing about the scientific issues involved. But Noeble addressed those issues separately right from the beginning. His first point was there is no evidence for this fairy tale (Theory X). His final point was that Theory X is incompatible with Biblical standards of "human values." I just don't understand why this was so hard for you to grasp. I thought his article was clear, crisp, and cogent.
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- Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/12/07 03:19:10 PM | | Age 56, OR |
>>"Of course, we shouldn't grant the claim in the first place that Darwinian evolution is somehow responsible for the great evils of the 20th century. For the theory makes claims ONLY about what IS the case, not about what OUGHT TO BE the case. That people like Hitler and Stalin took Darwinism to license their actions shows only that they were susceptible to believing arguments as fallacious as those Noebel employed in his final paragraph."<<
Well, I think you are probably not a Christian. At some point Darwin was it seems. You may note that the Christians who make comments (like me) do not have all the facts they need or the reason required to present them properly.
What followers of Jesus try to do is propose to non-followers a Reason for the Hope that lies within them. Sometimes this means disputing certain questionable facts, or 'facts' that are unprovable. I have had head-spinning conversations with existentialists that basically told me I was not really there, but just there in their mind for entertainment.
The really neat thing about God is that He does not require my permission to be "there". Also He does not require my permission to draw me towards Him. He does, however, require my permission and agreement to Love and Follow Him thereby being Adopted as a Child of His. If I accept the Cross of Jesus and His Gift of Life and Forgiveness for all of my sins, then God Promises to save me and give me Eternal Life.
So now speaking from an entirely different mind-set and perspective to someone that is NOT a Child of God, I have to remind myself that this person I am talking to might be Shinto, Buddhist, Atheist, or any kind of the many, many beliefs that attract mankind. I must also be courteous and remember that this is a Potential child of God and I had better not 'blow it'.
Ok, so where am I headed? Sadly, like Darwin and many, many others, they were once (nominally at least) Christians. This poses Christians a real question. First they have to opologize for/about their beliefs and faith, then they have to quibble, "Was that guy a Christian to start with?" and up comes the Calvanist monster out of the swamps of uncertainty to make us all chase our tails again. Hitler, for instance, did a lot of "christian things" and thought he had the backing of the church to do his stuff. It has always been that way. But that does not detract from how you or I relate to the Lord Jesus. It is fallen man and his misdeeds that causes the actions of leaders and the genocide those actions often produce. It is this nature of mankind that Jesus came to rescue, redeem and put back on track. He does this for each of us individually. So the real issue of articles like this is SALVATION and the Saving Grace of our Lord Jesus, God's Messiah. Hopefully, then TRUTH and the Spirit of the Lord endows us with the beginnings of Wisdom. This then encourages us to write articles like this or comments, all the while hoping to enlighten our brothers and sisters and "work out our own Salvation in fear and trembling..." PGW
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- Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/11/07 05:35:18 PM | | Age 27, WA |
First, I think you were just looking for an excuse to argue against Dr. Noebel. "the glaring non-sequitur" that you claim is far from "glaring." Yes his statement "claims that Darwinian evolution is in some way responsible for great death and destruction." But his statement is not used to say that this is the reason that the theory if false. What Dr. Noebel is really saying is that Theory X led to death and destruction; therefore why does Dr. Donald Cronkite (A professor at Hope College) "find it such an honor to continue to propagate such a theory."
Dr. Noeble could spend all day explaining to you why the theory of evolution if false (you will notice that he mentions just a few in the top half of his article). Your mis-interpretation of one statement and the belief that this somehow makes him wrong is just plan silly, and a bit of a straw-man argument.
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- Re: Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/12/07 10:15:50 AM | | Age 63, OH |
You misunderstand his point. You say "theory X led to death and destruction". A theory can not kill anyone. You say that this idea is false so it does not even really exists except in the minds of some. How can something that does not even truly exists kill someone. Ideas don't kill people; people kill people. This is a ploy of Satan himself that we should fear ideas. Do we want to think like this; that is the same kind of thinking that the church used to burn people at the stake. They were evil not for what they did but for what they thought. My oldest son is a Marine and was in the 1st Gulf War so he keeps guns. Not one of these guns has killed one person. Guns do not kill people; people kill people. The gun is not guilty but the person is guilty. It would do no good to hang the gun and leave the person who pulled the trigger go. Hang the person who pulled the trigger and he will kill no more. Give the gun he used to a peace loving person and it will not be used to kill again. The theory was not guilty but Hitler and Stalin were.
Newton
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- Re: Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/12/07 02:09:38 AM | | Age 30, IN |
If Darwinian theory is TRUE, then it is irrelevant that it is misused by some to bring about death and destruction. So the fact (if it were a fact) that theory X leads to death and destruction would not be a good reason to stop "propogating it" if X were true. Again, by analogy, should a professor feel ashamed for "propogating" atomic theory, because some have abused that theory toward nefarious ends? Would teaching the truth about atomic structure (if indeed it is the truth) indicate a moral lapse on the part of the teacher? I don't see how it could. Likewise, then, Dr. Noebel is being unfair here by suggesting that the Hope College professor has morally erred in teaching evolutionary theory, where the moral error stems (at least in part) from the consequences of the theory's misuse. It's a big red herring (at best), and I point it out not b/c I "want to argue" with Dr. Noebel, but because such fallacious reasoning undermines the Christian witness. It reminds me of those who argue against Christianity by pointing to historical epochs in which individuals performed dastardly deeds in the name of Christianity. Such reasoning is very poor indeed, and we rightly condemn it. I just want to hold "our own" to the same standard of dialogue. Keep the focus on the question whether Darwinism is TRUE, not on whether some people have done this or that 'in the name of' Darwinism.
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- Re: Re: Why An Award From The National Association of Biology Teachers is Not An Honor For A Bible-Minded Christian
| Posted On: 01/11/07 01:25:24 PM | | Age 63, OH |
Thank you for your response; it shows the fallacy in the argument presented. It is man that is evil. -- Newton
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