Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 12/21/06 02:05:27 PM |
Age 66, AZ |
I am a Southern Baptist pastor. As such, I can state that there is no denominational control over my ministry or my church. We function in an independent manner. Several years ago, while pastoring in Idaho, there was a gentleman in our church who insisted on carrying a German Bible to church and Bible study. I asked him why? He said, "Because it is an accurate translation, not flawed like the English." His agrument was well taken. The KJV is a usable translation. It was the product of an unholy king attempting to justify his unholy acts by creating an unholy church. How that translation became the only acceptable tome for us as believers is problematic!! A young woman who came to Christ during my ministry in Idaho is solving the problem by memorizing the entire Bible in Greek and Hebrew! Maybe we all should!
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 12/11/06 11:13:47 AM |
Age 61, MO |
The emergent church is ruining the gospel of Christ. Do not offend the "seeker", is not what the Bible teaches. The Holy Spirit makes us uncomfortable in our sin, to know we need to be saved. Those in the emerging church so not know what they are saved from or to. Please stand up and be counted for the truth of Jesus Christ, which he proclaimed unashamedly, as should we.
I am so disappointed that man (ministers), are putting a large congregation as the sign of a Godly church, ahead of one that tells and stands on the truth of the Word. Truth means that their is a right and wrong. If it is not the truth then it is wrong. The Bible is the truth, lest we forget it.
I beg and pray that all Churches of the faith will return to the only true and accurate message of the Bible. Our future as a nation, as a people of God, and another generation of believers depends on it.
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/29/06 10:35:51 AM |
Age 35, IN |
Thank you Ken Silva. You are right on the money. Emergent must be exposed and opposed no less (and probably more) than the false religions of Islam and New Age.
Pray this poisonous movement dies fast before it ruins one more soul.
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 02:24:55 PM |
Age 50, NC |
Will NO ONE within the SBC take a stand against this post modern, Emerging church? I thank Ken for this article. He states what has seeped into congregations. As a member of a large SBC church, I have recently noted Emergent "doctrine" in the youth wing/contemporary services at my church. It has invaded through the youth area with a newly created "prayer room" with material directly from Pete Greig and his 24/7 prayer site-->>totally ecumenical lacking the message of sinners, saved by grace and faith in Jesus. The links from this small "prayer room" have led to the occult "The Order of the Mustard Seed" by Greig again, and the promotion of Vows taken, rings ordered and tattoos! Yes, this has been in a hige SBC! This is Emergent, ecumenical, along with Rob Bell, his NOOMA series, "breath prayers", neglect of Jesus as the one and only Savior. I recently attended a service of Brian McLaren's in my town here. His message was of nothing pertaining to coming to Jesus and his prayer ommitting "in Jesus' name".
As 2 Timothy 4:3 states, people WILL listen and have their ears tickled. They are embracing false teachers and false doctrine.
I have heard Emergent promoted by youth pastors, and the Nooma series IN my teen's sunday school class. I hope some here will take the time to listen to what Rob Bell's breath prayer teaching sounds like and is about. There is NOTHING in God's word, The Bible, that speaks of prayer this way, which incorporates emptying oneself!
My church is large and let me tell you, I am so appreciate for those believers as Ken Silva who lay it out on the line and speak the truth using God's word as his source.
Believers need to WAKE UP, and realize this is false doctrine. I hope Dr. Frank Page goes back to scripture to see if the doctrine of Emergent is that of the message of Jesus dying on the cross for we sinner in order to have eternal life. If it isn't, church growth, brotherhood, love and kisses, and "experience" will NOT bring people to eternity!!
I would encourage other believers to take a BIG stand against this false doctrine.
Thank you.. I continue in prayer for more eyes to open!
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 10:34:04 AM |
Age 24, WA |
Thank you for your article and concern for the Southern Baptist Convention. I was a member of a SB church at our last military post, and saw some changes made that seemed to usher in the emergent movement. One of those changes was the acceptance of Rick Warren's 40 days of purpose drive, which always bothered me. Another was some of the materials I saw being presented at Lifeway (SBC bookstore). I had always trusted Lifeway for sound doctrinal material, but as I discovered, the lure of sales and "new" ideas brought in numerous questionable products. I, as I may guess that you are as well, am praying for a return to biblical truth in the Southern Baptist Convention and various churches affected by this infiltration. Keep on, brother.
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 10:10:34 AM |
Age 22, NC |
As a youth pastor, having some form of relevance and understanding of where the youth are coming from is key. I may not agree with all the methodologies of the Emerging leaders, but you can not throw the proverbial "baby out with the bath water."
Growing up in the SBC I can remember how irrelevant the teachings were to my place in life. The messages, by my youth pastor, were either over my head, or didn't relate. Not because I was some second rate Christian, but because the youth pastor didn't know how to relate God's Word to me and my friends in a relevant way. And it wasn't because my youth pastor was some volunteer worker without proper Biblical training. On the contrary he was very well educated, and my senior pastor, the president of our states SBC hired him personally.
What I am saying is, you have to relate to a generation to properly disciple a generation. Some of the Emergent teachings do that very thing, relate to our generation. And regardless of what your opinion is, you can be Emerging and Biblical, in fact, for the sake of this next generation, we must. Singing hymns and listening to 45 minute speeches just don't speak to my generation as they did yours.
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- Re: Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 11:08:54 AM | | Age 51, NH |
No easy way to say it youngblood but these are your own words to a man who has been in ministry longer than you have been alive, and who is also one that has personally been studying these issues from Emergent sources for over a year: "regardless of what your opinion is,..." A bit presumptuous at best because how would you know? I say this as politely as I can. That said though, therein we see some of the fruit of this Emergent rebellion against the Bible. It had a beginning and those who were there at the start were neo-orthodox at best. You show you are buying their baloney when you say: "for the sake of this next generation, we must." And then exhibiting their arrogance and straw men arguments as you continue: "Singing hymns and listening to 45 minute speeches just don't speak to my generation as they did yours." Many of these "hymns" are rooted in proper Biblical Reformed theology and that's what the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church hates. But you argue against what we don't believe, we are not saying one must only sing hymns. I am also a song writer and I don't write hymns. Nor do I do "45 minutes speches." My church meets in a home and I sit there, preach God's Word from the Bible, we often later discuess it, and they get upset when I go less than 45 minutes - they can't get enough. Incidentally three of the members are 17-18 year-olds that God led to Christ through me by doing just that. I didn't need any postmodern foolishness, anyway they're too smart and would see right through this repainted relativism. Seriously, check out this article because it talks about one of these kids and his parents: http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/the_consecratio.html
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- Looking DOWN on the youth...
| Posted On: 11/29/06 11:56:40 AM | | Age 48, CO |
Mister Silva,
I've read a few articles of yours now as well as some of your responses to the opinions that various people offer to your writings. I notice that when the person responding to you is of a younger age (usually in their 20's) and if they write something that appears to disagree or challenge your opinion, you seem to relish the opportunity to write in response pointing out the fact of how much older you are or how many years you have studied the Bible or been involved in ministry compared to how many years the critiquer has existed on planet earth. You use derogatory labels such as 'youngblood' I'm guessing to supposedly set these younger people in their place, which invariably seems to be at your feet looking up at you...and, sure enough, by the end of your written response you have indeed noted how 17 and 18 year-olds do just that.
This is amusing enough, but becomes outright comical when you then label or imply that your younger responder is the one who is 'presumptuous' or 'arrogant' not because of demeaning tactics he has done (that you, Mr. Silva resort to) but for no other apparent reason than he disagrees with youeither out of his own personal experience or because of the evidence he has seen in his ministry to others.
Also, check out your logic you seem to take offense when the younger responder questions your opinion evidenced by the following:
<i>regardless of what your opinion is,... A bit presumptuous at best because how would you know? </i>
but instead of dealing with the issue that the younger reader has brought up, you steer the issue back around to YOUwhether we know 100% of your mind on the matter. Give us a break. How would our younger reader (or any of us) know your opinion? We simply have to read it. Good night, its amply supplied over the internet via your website and this WW website. Instead of trying to understand or get at the essence of the issue, you now seem to split hairs whether we fully grasp your opinion or not. And I bet you probably think that if we did, then we would all be set straight on the matter, have no more questions/issues, and wouldnt dare question your opinion againwhether our reality or our experience matched up with yours or not (i.e. three teenagers sitting spellbound at your feet).
Your kind of attitude of one-up/one-down is one of the church leadership issues that the Emergent conversation is attempting to address and deal with in how they interpret Biblical passages such as I Tim. 4:12 where Paul exhorts his younger charge, Timothy (probably in his thirties), not to let anyone look down on his youth. In my ministry experience (29 years worthdoes that speak to you?) church hierarchy and leadership tends to tragically ignore the insights and ministry lessons that younger ministers have. The younger persons response to your web-posting was full of many valid and reasonable points but for some reason you choose to go this childish one-up/one-down route where it seems like your passions are getting in the way of any valid points you are trying to make.
As evidenced by the Bible as well as experience, someones age DOES matter in terms of the weight it carries when it is coupled with Godly wisdom. You may have the age, but your wisdom and spirit in dealing with those who may disagree with you and are younger than you could use an overhaul. As a note: I have been studying the Emerging movement phenom for over 9 years now (compared to your 1), but Im not expecting you to sit at my feetespecially when you find out (should you bother to ask) what my conclusions are about this movement. I am up for a dialogue thoughcan you handle that?
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- Re: Re: Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/29/06 10:24:04 AM | | Age 22, NC |
I am sorry for coming off as presumptuous, and that my age could be taken as a sign of weakness. But I won't let you look down on me because of my youth (see 1 Tim.). I have been studying this post-modern culture for 5 years now. I have a degree in Pastoral Ministry and Student Ministry from the fastest growing Christian university in America. I have done "some" research on this generation. I do not deny that the gentleman who authored this article has been in ministry longer then I have been alive, and may God bless him for his faithfulness to Christ's Bride. However, ministry tenure does not make someone an expert in ministrering to a post-modern generation or any generation that follows their own. If that were the case then the number of Evangelical Christians would not be on the decline in America. I love God's Word, and put nothing over it. But I do not believe that the methodologies of old work today. Now I know there are exceptions to the rule. The young people in your gathering are a testament to your ministries dedication to love and grace, and good for you! I would also say that your church/gathering does things differently then 95% of the Evangelical movement today because of your size. But the 90-100 students I see per month don't connect with God the same way your students do, or how I do, or how you do. All I think Dr. Page is saying is, "I see this generation of young people going to Hell, and I want to use the Bible and relevent methodologies to get them back!" And I agree with that statement wholeheartedly!
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/29/06 12:30:18 PM | | Age 51, NH |
For my "older" critic, age isn't the point, you missed the mark just as well and you have more years in ministry tahn I do. My point was I'm a bit more experienced than the particular younger people who today are so quick to disrespect their elders. By the way, "youngblood" is not derogatory at all. If you were more familiar with the culture in the U.S. you would know that.
And frankly he summed the issue up very well; why look at that, I can compliment that which is worthy of being complimented, when he says as follows: "All I think Dr. Page is saying is, 'I see this generation of young people going to Hell, and I want to use the Bible and relevent methodologies to get them back!' " Dr. Page is saying that and I'm telling anyone who will listen that he is absolutely dead wrong if he - or anyone else - thinks this is what the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church is actually doing. This movement is not of God and is instead a most blatant attack on the doctrines of grace - most specifically sola Scriptura and the vicarious penal substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross. You'd best see it for what it is and decide quickly which side of the fence you are on (see-Revelation 3:16).
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- Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/30/06 10:01:30 AM | | Age 48, CO |
"I am up for a dialogue thoughcan you handle that?"
\\
I guess you can't handle it...
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 10:06:37 AM |
Age 57, KS |
I am a SBC pastor and have been a pastor for 35 years, thus experiencing a lot of issues and debates on issues. First of all, the debate is healthy. We need for people to call our attention to serious concerns about doctrine and morals. Dr. Paige should be given the benefit of the doubt as to what he meant by his statements, and I for one would take him at his word; however, I also agree with the point that as a high profile leader of our denomination, that he also has a responsibility to speak out and warn our people of departures from biblical doctrine, philosophy and morals and the dangers that are a part of the emergent church movement. Dr. Paige's passion to win the lost to Christ is commendable and sincerely appreciated, but his responsibility goes beyond that to defending the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.
Gene Dollar
Paola, KS
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 07:14:15 AM |
Age 57, OH |
I am a recent graduate of The Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, and have served in SBC churches since 1970. It seems to me that some people, who should know better, are intentionally manipulating symantics in order to further their own perspective. That the Professor at Midwestern Seminary meant his comment to be taken as an inclusive embrace of all that is forthcoming from the emerging conversation, has not been clarified in what was written here. If affirmative, I fear the slide toward neo-liberalism which you predict. As for Dr. Page's comments. I think he clarified his position. Perhaps he should be more careful with his terms. And you should verify before attacking.
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- Re: Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 01:52:14 PM | | Age 36, MI |
One more thought: if you want a fuller view of what Dr. Devine thinks about emergent, I think it is well summarized in this post from his web site: http://www.theologyprof.com/2006/05/emerging-yes-neck-veins-protruding.html
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- Re: Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 01:34:27 PM | | Age 36, MI |
As a graduate of Midwestern Seminary, I had the distinct privilege of sitting in Dr. Devines classes. I can assure you without a doubt that His teaching of theology was orthodox in every regard. At the same time, I can also assure you that Dr. Devine is more concerned about Biblical theology and practice than he is about ANYTHING traditional. Dr. Devine would fight to the end to oppose such foolishness as universal salvation and general ecumenicalism that is often associated with the Emergent movement. Dr. Devine would also fight to the end for the need to use language that people can understand to convey ultimate truth that they must know.
Several weeks back, I contacted Dr. Devine to ask his opinion about the emergent movement and what it entailed. Since I dont have his permission, I wont directly quote him, but in essence, he said: Check out Ed Stetzers attempt to identify three different streams which all have the label of the emerging/emergent movement. There seem to be some values/convictions that are more or less shared by virtually every group associated with emergent/missional language but these values/convictions are stylistic, NOT doctrinal. There is a large doctrinal difference between Brian McLaren and Mark Driscoll.
Based on following up some of Devines research hints, I have concluded that the problem is indeed semantic! But unlike most semantic problems where people are saying the same thing using different words, here people are saying widely different things with the same words. Some who would consider themselves emergent/missional are trying to be like Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:20-23, being all things to all people in order to save some. These people are concerned with issues of style and method, not belief and practice. Others consider themselves emergent/missional and are trying to dismiss the significance of any belief (this is what I personally heard from the speakers at the MOSAIC conference last summer). The third group goes beyond dismissing significance of belief to outright denial of essential Christian doctrine (these tend toward universal salvation, salvation through association, etc.) The first of the three groups is Biblical, with Biblical motives. The second group is a-Biblical with possibly Biblical motives. The third group is Anti-Biblical with non-Biblical motives. All three use the same description of themselves.
Rather than rant against anyone who uses the phrase emergent, lets instead educate about deceptive doctrine and anti-biblical practice. Ideally, in short order, there will be three terms that emerge that distinctly show the differences between these three groups, but the ideal does not always take place. If a group is a church of Jesus Christ that can be a biblical, new testament church, or that can be a Mormon groupthe semantics are the difference, but we do not throw away anyone who claims to be in a church of Jesus Christ, we dig deeper to find what they believe. The same care should be given to those who claim emergent/missional beliefs (as well as to scholars and others who are trying to find the limits of what is being said and believed).
--
In the Father and on the Journey
|K< |E[ \V/ ]I[ |N|
Kevin Finkenbinder
Pastor and Director
Christian Challenge at Central Michigan University
kwfinken@gmail.com
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 06:51:57 AM |
Age 56, MN |
This is the sign of the times.
Discernment is nill today.
rather, go along to get along.
Mr.Page is a double minded man,he tells you one thing, but does another.
This seems to be happening every where.
What happened to sound doctrine, well what Paul said would happen, they will NOT endure it, rather the tickling of ears instead.
There is no absolutes anymore, everything is ok, no matter what it is.
PEOPLE are becoming lovers of themself, so they want to think thru their own thinking, not thru the word or the Holy Spirit, they are leaning on THEIR OWN understanding, they are wiser than GOD.
If you try to correct them, you are labeled intolerant or just that you lack the ability to understand them.
ITs the sign of the times.
Pray for those who are standing firm and strong in the word, WE WILL be persecuted, by those who are falling into deception.
LOTS are going to say LORD, LORD, its a sad sad thing.
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Re: Open Letter To Dr. Frank Page, President of the Southern Baptist Convention
| Posted On: 11/28/06 06:25:37 AM |
Age 63, OH |
I've been reading some of the articles regarding the Emergent Church with much interest and concern. As all of us understand that a great ship on the ocean cannot be turned quickly but must be done so gradually, it also concerns me that leaders of the SBC might even consider using any methods or beliefs of the Emergent Church that would adversly affect the cause of Christ. Because Satan is in no hurry, he will take whatever time he needs to infect and spread the disease of liberal belief. Would any of us allow even a simple, single cancer cell to be introduced into our body? After all, it is only a single cell and how much harm can it do? Remember that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Trying to make people feel good about themselves while they are infected and dieing with the disease of sin does no one any good.
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